Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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Mumfie
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Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Mumfie »

From this video it seems the country offers very favourable conditions.


thepea wrote: As a Vipassana student sitting courses we often had the case where your cushion neighbour would come down with illness and begin to sneeze, cough or sniffle uncontrollably beside you. We were told this is sankhara arising and to bring your awareness to your breath or bodily sensation as this was where the work was to be done. If you did this then the individual and the entire room would disappear and you would absorb into jhana like concentration.
Today I just saw at Quebec centre that as on January 2023 if you come down with a cold or flu symptoms on course you will be asked to leave.
My question is, is this safe for the meditator?
Given that goenka refers to these courses as surgeries day 1 you make the incision and day 10 or 20 or 30etc... you apply the balm to the wound on metta day. He repeats continuously that it’s dangerous to leave in the middle of the surgery and at’s are trained to talk and keep a student from leaving.
Why are these places trading away all the sage wisdom from Goenka and invoking completely new policies?
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Everyone entering a retreat should have been tested for Covid.

In case anyone goes down with the 'flu or some other infectious disease, all they need to do is self-isolate. Inform the teacher, stop going to group sittings, and have a volunteer bring food to one's room.

If sharing a room with others, some changes to accommodation may be required.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: Tue Nov 29, 2022 6:33 pm Everyone entering a retreat should have been tested for Covid.

In case anyone goes down with the 'flu or some other infectious disease, all they need to do is self-isolate. Inform the teacher, stop going to group sittings, and have a volunteer bring food to one's room.

If sharing a room with others, some changes to accommodation may be required.
That crosses the line of trespass to property.
Everybody has dominion over ones body. Your body is your property and it’s medical condition is your private property to share or to keep private.
I’ve lived 53 years and never taken any precautions to avoid illness. At times you catch the flu or a cold and recovering from this strengthens ones immune system.
There is zero need for vaccines or flu shots if you have a healthy immune system. As always medication should be choice if one feels this helpful. Never should coercion be used or should people be forced to mask over this mental illness.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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thepea wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:17 pm That crosses the line of trespass to property.
That can't possibly be the case, for attendance at a Goenka retreat is an entirely voluntary affair and the would-be retreatants are fully notified of what medical conditions they must fulfill to be permitted entrance and what behaviour will be required of them during the retreat. And so the retreatants are neither constrained nor duped. It's no more a "trespass" than, say, a posh nightclub requiring men to wear ties and women dresses.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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Mumfie wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:21 am
thepea wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:17 pm That crosses the line of trespass to property.
That can't possibly be the case, for attendance at a Goenka retreat is an entirely voluntary affair and the would-be retreatants are fully notified of what medical conditions they must fulfill to be permitted entrance and what behaviour will be required of them during the retreat. And so the retreatants are neither constrained nor duped. It's no more a "trespass" than, say, a posh nightclub requiring men to wear ties and women dresses.
It is the case, as the Goenka retreat centre is entering your body(private property) with their forced questions. They have no business knowing if you are sick, vaccinated, ate eggs for breakfast or a steak sandwich. This information is your private property.
If the Goenka centres created policy that said all retreatants must give blood on day 0, day 3, and day 6 would this not be a trespass of your property?
Or more crudely, if males had to give sperm samples, or females had to submit to a vaginal exam. Where is the line of trespass?
Quite simply it’s the body, and any penetration of the body cannot be forced entry or coercion used(don’t submit no course). This means no questions about physical well being, no testing, no forced vaccination can be a requirement they must be voluntary with zero coercion used or intimidation. Otherwise where does this trespass end? A pound of flesh as a requirement to gain entrance?

I would also go as far as to condemn the mask as the breath is vital to ones health and must remain unrestricted if this is the preference of the breather. Nobody should ever be forced to restrict the flow of oxygen to their body.

Buddha new this, Sayagi u bha Khin knew this, Goenka knew this, why is this forgotten now?

Also you cannot compare a wrong of the past to a present day mandate. You enter this world naked, this is the natural state of man. Everything worn by man should be voluntary. Cultural traditional indoctrination aside. No harm can come from viewing a naked body unless the viewer consents to this.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:06 pm
Mumfie wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:21 am
thepea wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:17 pm That crosses the line of trespass to property.
That can't possibly be the case, for attendance at a Goenka retreat is an entirely voluntary affair and the would-be retreatants are fully notified of what medical conditions they must fulfill to be permitted entrance and what behaviour will be required of them during the retreat. And so the retreatants are neither constrained nor duped. It's no more a "trespass" than, say, a posh nightclub requiring men to wear ties and women dresses.
It is the case, as the Goenka retreat centre is entering your body(private property) with their forced questions....
Quite simply it’s the body, and any penetration of the body cannot be forced entry or coercion used
Are you saying here that the Goenka centres literally penetrate people's bodies? As with a knife, probe, or sexual violation of an orifice?
They have no business knowing if you are sick, vaccinated, ate eggs for breakfast or a steak sandwich. This information is your private property.
They have, under most jurisdictions, a right to ask. And, as you have a right to refuse to give them an answer, there is no coercion. As has been pointed out, many transactions require an exchange of information. You might not like that, but you are at liberty to refuse to participate. While you have that liberty, there is no coercion.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:35 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:06 pm
Mumfie wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:21 am

That can't possibly be the case, for attendance at a Goenka retreat is an entirely voluntary affair and the would-be retreatants are fully notified of what medical conditions they must fulfill to be permitted entrance and what behaviour will be required of them during the retreat. And so the retreatants are neither constrained nor duped. It's no more a "trespass" than, say, a posh nightclub requiring men to wear ties and women dresses.
It is the case, as the Goenka retreat centre is entering your body(private property) with their forced questions....
Quite simply it’s the body, and any penetration of the body cannot be forced entry or coercion used
Are you saying here that the Goenka centres literally penetrate people's bodies? As with a knife, probe, or sexual violation of an orifice?
They have no business knowing if you are sick, vaccinated, ate eggs for breakfast or a steak sandwich. This information is your private property.
They have, under most jurisdictions, a right to ask. And, as you have a right to refuse to give them an answer, there is no coercion. As has been pointed out, many transactions require an exchange of information. You might not like that, but you are at liberty to refuse to participate. While you have that liberty, there is no coercion.
Goenka centres are not asking but forcing testing and vaccination. If you do not comply you are not allowed to go or if already on course and refuse testing you must leave.
They are forcing you to give part of your body(property) to them.

Everybody has the freedom of speech to ask anyone anything they desire. It’s when we segregate mankind based in their answers or silence that the trespass to property occurs.

What about essential services or employment?
Do you support the segregation of mankind based on exercising constitutionally protected liberties?
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:49 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:35 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:06 pm

It is the case, as the Goenka retreat centre is entering your body(private property) with their forced questions....
Quite simply it’s the body, and any penetration of the body cannot be forced entry or coercion used
Are you saying here that the Goenka centres literally penetrate people's bodies? As with a knife, probe, or sexual violation of an orifice?
They have no business knowing if you are sick, vaccinated, ate eggs for breakfast or a steak sandwich. This information is your private property.
They have, under most jurisdictions, a right to ask. And, as you have a right to refuse to give them an answer, there is no coercion. As has been pointed out, many transactions require an exchange of information. You might not like that, but you are at liberty to refuse to participate. While you have that liberty, there is no coercion.
Goenka centres are not asking but forcing testing and vaccination. If you do not comply you are not allowed to go or if already on course and refuse testing you must leave.
They are forcing you to give part of your body(property) to them.
So they are not, in fact, literally penetrating people's bodies.

Do you mean that they are literally dismembering people and taking part of their physical bodies?
Everybody has the freedom of speech to ask anyone anything they desire. It’s when we segregate mankind based in their answers or silence that the trespass to property occurs.
I'm not sure what "trespass to property" means, but there are plenty of times when we treat people differently because of answers that they give to questions. Goenka Vipassana Centres have always debarred people who are not "old students" from certain activities, haven't they?
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:09 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:49 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:35 pm

Are you saying here that the Goenka centres literally penetrate people's bodies? As with a knife, probe, or sexual violation of an orifice?



They have, under most jurisdictions, a right to ask. And, as you have a right to refuse to give them an answer, there is no coercion. As has been pointed out, many transactions require an exchange of information. You might not like that, but you are at liberty to refuse to participate. While you have that liberty, there is no coercion.
Goenka centres are not asking but forcing testing and vaccination. If you do not comply you are not allowed to go or if already on course and refuse testing you must leave.
They are forcing you to give part of your body(property) to them.
So they are not, in fact, literally penetrating people's bodies.

Do you mean that they are literally dismembering people and taking part of their physical bodies?
Everybody has the freedom of speech to ask anyone anything they desire. It’s when we segregate mankind based in their answers or silence that the trespass to property occurs.
I'm not sure what "trespass to property" means, but there are plenty of times when we treat people differently because of answers that they give to questions. Goenka Vipassana Centres have always debarred people who are not "old students" from certain activities, haven't they?
Where do they get the sample to test from, if not your body?

The forms I’ve filled out in past were vague and were easy for anyone to answer using skillful speech to gain entrance.
You could also leave answers blank if you desired privacy. I saw zero segregation other than women from men and sitting students from servers. Everyone was encouraged to stay and finish as this was their determination from start.
Now it seems the opposite.... halfway through the surgery students are being asked to leave either from refusal to hand over part of their body or because of a positive or a symptom. This as I’ve been taught is most dangerous to the new student and all should be encouraged to stay and complete the surgery.

Trespass to property is the breach of the peace. It’s an act of war against another. The body is each our own property for the duration of this life. To trespass upon another’s body against their will is a breach of peace. This is where sila is stemmed from. How can you teach dhamma in an environment where the peace is breached continuously?
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:49 pm Goenka centres are not asking but forcing testing and vaccination.
Sounds dreadful. But how exactly are the meditators forced to submit to this? Do you mean the Assistant Teachers hold a gun to their heads? Overpower them and put them in straitjackets? Dope them with Rohypnol? Beat them into submission with baseball bats?
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:49 pmIf you do not comply you are not allowed to go or if already on course and refuse testing you must leave.
Oh, you mean meditators do actually have the option of not complying? Why then speak of "forcing"? A nightclub that refuses entrance to men without ties isn't forcing anybody to wear a tie, for nobody is forced to go to the nightclub.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:31 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:09 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:49 pm

Goenka centres are not asking but forcing testing and vaccination. If you do not comply you are not allowed to go or if already on course and refuse testing you must leave.
They are forcing you to give part of your body(property) to them.
So they are not, in fact, literally penetrating people's bodies.

Do you mean that they are literally dismembering people and taking part of their physical bodies?
Everybody has the freedom of speech to ask anyone anything they desire. It’s when we segregate mankind based in their answers or silence that the trespass to property occurs.
I'm not sure what "trespass to property" means, but there are plenty of times when we treat people differently because of answers that they give to questions. Goenka Vipassana Centres have always debarred people who are not "old students" from certain activities, haven't they?
Where do they get the sample to test from, if not your body?
They don't take part of the body, which is what you say above.
The forms I’ve filled out in past were vague and were easy for anyone to answer using skillful speech to gain entrance.
That looks as if the centres tried to restrict people attending, but you think that was OK because they couldn't make the system work. The Vipassana centres offer a service, which you are not obliged to take. There are conditions attached to that service, and if you don't like the conditions, then you are free to avoid them by not taking up the service. As such, it is not coercion, any more than a credit card company requiring proof of address. If you don't like providing proof of address, you can do without the credit card.
Trespass to property is the breach of the peace. It’s an act of war against another. The body is each our own property for the duration of this life. To trespass upon another’s body against their will is a breach of peace. This is where sila is stemmed from. How can you teach dhamma in an environment where the peace is breached continuously?
This looks like the sort of quasi-legal stuff that non-lawyers use to bluff. Returning to Vipassana Centres, nobody's body is "trespassed upon" (whatever that means!) against their will, because they willingly take part in any testing. Their participation is entirely voluntary, so their acceptance of conditions in unforced.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:49 pmGoenka centres are not asking but forcing testing and vaccination. If you do not comply you are not allowed to go or if already on course and refuse testing you must leave.
They are forcing you to give part of your body(property) to them.
Well, they are a private owned organization so they very well can do that.

Do you think the Goenka organization owes you something?

Do you think you have some rights toward the Goenka organization?
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:57 pmReturning to Vipassana Centres, nobody's body is "trespassed upon" (whatever that means!) against their will, because they willingly take part in any testing. Their participation is entirely voluntary, so their acceptance of conditions in unforced.
Mumfie wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:46 pmOh, you mean meditators do actually have the option of not complying?
It probably doesn't feel all that voluntary to someone who has invested a lot of time and energy into it already.

It's a bit similar to the way a married spouse considers themselves to have rights over their spouse. Things between them were voluntary before they got married, but once married, they believe they have certain rights to eachother's bodies, money, time, etc..

The two of you are quasi asking Thepea to remain as if married to the Goenka organization, yet have no rights to it. Or else, suggesting, that it should be easy for him to separate himself from it.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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Radix wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:27 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:57 pmReturning to Vipassana Centres, nobody's body is "trespassed upon" (whatever that means!) against their will, because they willingly take part in any testing. Their participation is entirely voluntary, so their acceptance of conditions in unforced.
Mumfie wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:46 pmOh, you mean meditators do actually have the option of not complying?
It probably doesn't feel all that voluntary to someone who has invested a lot of time and energy into it already.
That's why I'm showing him facts rather than feelings.
It's a bit similar to the way a married spouse considers themselves to have rights over their spouse. Things between them were voluntary before they got married, but once married, they believe they have certain rights to eachother's bodies, money, time, etc..
Not very similar, though, considering how marriage is a legal contract, whereas attendance at a meditation centre is not.
The two of you are quasi asking Thepea to remain as if married to the Goenka organization, yet have no rights to it. Or else, suggesting, that it should be easy for him to separate himself from it.
No, I'm not doing that. I'm pointing out that disappointment around things changing is not best addressed by entering unarmed into the arena of political and legal philosophy. And there's this, of course:

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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Radix »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:42 pmThat's why I'm showing him facts rather than feelings.
/.../
Not very similar, though, considering how marriage is a legal contract, whereas attendance at a meditation centre is not.
It appears you expect of people to practice a considerable level of detachment from their chosen spiritual path.
Western Buddhism is the perfect ideological supplement to rabid consumerist capitalism.
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