Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:24 am
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:19 pm
So the dhamma which was meant to be delivered for free now has a pricetag, your snot.
I won’t pay.... the Buddha gives dhamma for free.
The Buddha gave Dhamma for free, but we have all paid money already to access it. Tomes by Bikkhu Bodhi, computers so we can access on-line suttas and video Dhamma-talks, and travel to centres. If I was a devotee of sitting in a big hall with others, listening to tapes by Goenkaji, all absolutely free, I would think that a smear of mucus was a pretty good bargain.
I won’t give two shits for the dhamma if forced or coerced.


If they are asking for that, it's probably e. coli they are testing for. :D
Dhamma must be offered for free so it is accessible by ALL, this is the teachings.
Zero pricetag can be placed on the dhamma. I have never and will never expect anyone to pay any fee to receive the dhamma, not a snot, a penny, or ecoli. You give Dana for dhamma and this Dana must not be coerced in any way, otherwise it’s not Dana it’s extortion.

So Sam..... do you support extortion through segregation?
Does this seem a rational way to you for dhamma to be delivered within communities of meditators.
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:30 am
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:28 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:12 am

So you are worried about India when you could get to Texas or the UK and practice without restriction.

Do you think you are likely to receive satisfactory answers about a private organisation's policies here on DW? Are some of the members responsible for the health restrictions?
Texas Vipassana centre is similarly requiring vaccination/masking and testing as pricetag to sit courses.
India is simply taking it further with a mobile “safe” app requirement.
There are no centres in North America where I can visit. They all have adopted these new health policies.
UK, then. I'll buy you a coffee.
UK is the same, they require testing before and on day of arrival. Pure Dhamma MUST be offered for free. No pricetag can be placed on the dhamma, not even spit.
As you can see this price of spit cannot be paid by all and then it ceases to be dhamma.
It’s my body(apparently) and it’s my property(apparently) and you cannot extort someone’s property for dhamma and call it dhamma.
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Mumfie
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Mumfie »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:28 am Texas Vipassana centre is similarly requiring vaccination/masking and testing as pricetag to sit courses.
India is simply taking it further with a mobile “safe” app requirement.
There are no centres in North America where I can visit. They all have adopted these new health policies.
But no problems in South Korea!
Registration procedure specific to Dhamma Korea for people who are attending a 10 day course.

As Korean government relaxed the rules on Covid-19, anyone can apply for a course regardless of vaccination. If you apply from a foreign country, you need to arrive in Korea at least 3 days before course starts.

- 3 months before the start of the course, registration will be open from 6:00 am, all day long, after which the course will be closed (for registration). During COVID-19 outbreak, registeration will open about 4 weeks before.

- An electronic random selection will then be made to allocate available places for the course and to establish a waiting list.

https://www.dhamma.org/en/schedules/schkorea
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Mumfie wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:18 am
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:28 am Texas Vipassana centre is similarly requiring vaccination/masking and testing as pricetag to sit courses.
India is simply taking it further with a mobile “safe” app requirement.
There are no centres in North America where I can visit. They all have adopted these new health policies.
But no problems in South Korea!
Registration procedure specific to Dhamma Korea for people who are attending a 10 day course.

As Korean government relaxed the rules on Covid-19, anyone can apply for a course regardless of vaccination. If you apply from a foreign country, you need to arrive in Korea at least 3 days before course starts.

- 3 months before the start of the course, registration will be open from 6:00 am, all day long, after which the course will be closed (for registration). During COVID-19 outbreak, registeration will open about 4 weeks before.

- An electronic random selection will then be made to allocate available places for the course and to establish a waiting list.

https://www.dhamma.org/en/schedules/schkorea
Do you know why?
There is no Covid requirements here in North America yet ALL centres have adopted these new policies as their new normal. What makes South Korea different at current?
Texas centre was like this for some time but now they for zero health reasons or government mandate reason have re-introduced these strict health policies.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:48 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:30 am
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:28 am

Texas Vipassana centre is similarly requiring vaccination/masking and testing as pricetag to sit courses.
India is simply taking it further with a mobile “safe” app requirement.
There are no centres in North America where I can visit. They all have adopted these new health policies.
UK, then. I'll buy you a coffee.
UK is the same, they require testing before and on day of arrival. Pure Dhamma MUST be offered for free. No pricetag can be placed on the dhamma, not even spit.
As you can see this price of spit cannot be paid by all and then it ceases to be dhamma.
It’s my body(apparently) and it’s my property(apparently) and you cannot extort someone’s property for dhamma and call it dhamma.
No mention of it at all on the UK website.

And extortion is obtaining benefit through coercion. Nobody is ever coerced into attending a meditation centre. In terms of those experts in extortion, the Mafia, they'll make you an offer you can easily refuse.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:38 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:24 am
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:19 pm
So the dhamma which was meant to be delivered for free now has a pricetag, your snot.
I won’t pay.... the Buddha gives dhamma for free.
The Buddha gave Dhamma for free, but we have all paid money already to access it. Tomes by Bikkhu Bodhi, computers so we can access on-line suttas and video Dhamma-talks, and travel to centres. If I was a devotee of sitting in a big hall with others, listening to tapes by Goenkaji, all absolutely free, I would think that a smear of mucus was a pretty good bargain.
I won’t give two shits for the dhamma if forced or coerced.


If they are asking for that, it's probably e. coli they are testing for. :D
Dhamma must be offered for free so it is accessible by ALL, this is the teachings.
Zero pricetag can be placed on the dhamma. I have never and will never expect anyone to pay any fee to receive the dhamma, not a snot, a penny, or ecoli. You give Dana for dhamma and this Dana must not be coerced in any way, otherwise it’s not Dana it’s extortion.
Sure. I told Jeff Bezos this, and he sent me a computer for free, along with a set of books by Bhikkhu Bodhi. And travel to retreat centres is free, you just show your Buddhist identity card.
So Sam..... do you support extortion through segregation?
Absolutely not. Extortion is a bad thing. But so far, I've seen no evidence of extortion.

Do you mean: "Do you support the right of a private organisation to impose conditions of entry upon would-be participants?"?

Why, yes, I do.
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Mumfie
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Mumfie »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:27 am What makes South Korea different at current?
See the video in the OP, produced by a veteran TEFL teacher in Seoul and confirmed to me by lots of other Westerners who've worked in that country.

Koreans want to let people know that they're diligent and deem their health to be a small sacrifice in pursuit of this goal.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:51 am
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:48 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:30 am

UK, then. I'll buy you a coffee.
UK is the same, they require testing before and on day of arrival. Pure Dhamma MUST be offered for free. No pricetag can be placed on the dhamma, not even spit.
As you can see this price of spit cannot be paid by all and then it ceases to be dhamma.
It’s my body(apparently) and it’s my property(apparently) and you cannot extort someone’s property for dhamma and call it dhamma.
No mention of it at all on the UK website.

And extortion is obtaining benefit through coercion. Nobody is ever coerced into attending a meditation centre. In terms of those experts in extortion, the Mafia, they'll make you an offer you can easily refuse.
It’s there when you click on 10 day courses and requirements to attend.
Antigen testing required.

Extortion is the practice of obtaining something through force or threats. Basically the dhamma centres are saying if you don’t give up your property you cannot attend.
Forced renunciation is not renunciation its duress.
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:03 am
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:38 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:24 am

The Buddha gave Dhamma for free, but we have all paid money already to access it. Tomes by Bikkhu Bodhi, computers so we can access on-line suttas and video Dhamma-talks, and travel to centres. If I was a devotee of sitting in a big hall with others, listening to tapes by Goenkaji, all absolutely free, I would think that a smear of mucus was a pretty good bargain.



If they are asking for that, it's probably e. coli they are testing for. :D
Dhamma must be offered for free so it is accessible by ALL, this is the teachings.
Zero pricetag can be placed on the dhamma. I have never and will never expect anyone to pay any fee to receive the dhamma, not a snot, a penny, or ecoli. You give Dana for dhamma and this Dana must not be coerced in any way, otherwise it’s not Dana it’s extortion.
Sure. I told Jeff Bezos this, and he sent me a computer for free, along with a set of books by Bhikkhu Bodhi. And travel to retreat centres is free, you just show your Buddhist identity card.
So Sam..... do you support extortion through segregation?
Absolutely not. Extortion is a bad thing. But so far, I've seen no evidence of extortion.

Do you mean: "Do you support the right of a private organisation to impose conditions of entry upon would-be participants?"?

Why, yes, I do.
Travel to a centre is not dhamma, neither is ordering something from Amazon. And if bhikku bhodi’s book is not free it is NOT dhamma. Dhamma MUST be offered for free to ALL ready to receive. If this condition is not met then it is not dhamma. This is the pristine purity of Dhamma that I was taught.

I use to go Sunday mornings to the vihara near my house where I used to reside, and they had an open door policy for meditation.
Anyone who wished to meditate would quietly walk in and sit, the monastic would enter silently a few minutes before 9am and precisely at 9am he would begin the directions.
If anyone arrived after this or during they would simply enter and sit and join in. Then he would ring the gong to signal the walking meditation then he would silently dissspear and we were free to stay and sit or walk for as long as we desired.
This is a private organization but it’s open to public at certain times. During these times there is no segregation. At other times the gates were closed. Never when the gates were open was there segregation.
This was the case at dhamma centres. During courses or after hours the gates were closed but otherwise it was open with zero segregation. It was open to all ready or looking to receive dhamma. This was purity of dhamma. Now you may only receive dhamma if you are vaccinated, masked and submit your property to testing.
This is extorting the dhamma.
I have already received the dhamma in its purity.

The dhamma or any group calling itself a dhamma centre is not a private organization. Dhamma is not to be held hostage.
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Mumfie wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:10 am
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:27 am What makes South Korea different at current?
See the video in the OP, produced by a veteran TEFL teacher in Seoul and confirmed to me by lots of other Westerners who've worked in that country.

Koreans want to let people know that they're diligent and deem their health to be a small sacrifice in pursuit of this goal.
I thought it a foolish video.
There is no evidence to support gatherings of humans an unhealthy activity.
We have immune systems to regulate infection.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:27 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:51 am
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:48 am
UK is the same, they require testing before and on day of arrival. Pure Dhamma MUST be offered for free. No pricetag can be placed on the dhamma, not even spit.
As you can see this price of spit cannot be paid by all and then it ceases to be dhamma.
It’s my body(apparently) and it’s my property(apparently) and you cannot extort someone’s property for dhamma and call it dhamma.
No mention of it at all on the UK website.

And extortion is obtaining benefit through coercion. Nobody is ever coerced into attending a meditation centre. In terms of those experts in extortion, the Mafia, they'll make you an offer you can easily refuse.
It’s there when you click on 10 day courses and requirements to attend.
Antigen testing required.
I can't find it. I've just gone through the application process, and I can't see a mention.
Extortion is the practice of obtaining something through force or threats. Basically the dhamma centres are saying if you don’t give up your property you cannot attend.
So it's not extortion, then, is it? Even if you think that snot is your "property", they've never acquired it from you, or from me. Compare that to real Mafia-style extortion, which makes you an offer you can't refuse. If you can politely decline Al Capone's offer to protect your business, he's not an extortionist but a legal private contractor.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:49 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:03 am
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:38 am

Dhamma must be offered for free so it is accessible by ALL, this is the teachings.
Zero pricetag can be placed on the dhamma. I have never and will never expect anyone to pay any fee to receive the dhamma, not a snot, a penny, or ecoli. You give Dana for dhamma and this Dana must not be coerced in any way, otherwise it’s not Dana it’s extortion.
Sure. I told Jeff Bezos this, and he sent me a computer for free, along with a set of books by Bhikkhu Bodhi. And travel to retreat centres is free, you just show your Buddhist identity card.
So Sam..... do you support extortion through segregation?
Absolutely not. Extortion is a bad thing. But so far, I've seen no evidence of extortion.

Do you mean: "Do you support the right of a private organisation to impose conditions of entry upon would-be participants?"?

Why, yes, I do.
Travel to a centre is not dhamma, neither is ordering something from Amazon.
Nor is sitting in a big sex-segregated hall listening to tapes of Goenkaji, and not being allowed to talk. The Dhamma might well be free, but your snot-sample pays for the delivery mode. I can't think of anywhere it would be cheaper.
Dhamma MUST be offered for free to ALL ready to receive. If this condition is not met then it is not dhamma. This is the pristine purity of Dhamma that I was taught.
Must it? Obviously, then, you are not ready to receive.
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:03 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:27 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:51 am

No mention of it at all on the UK website.

And extortion is obtaining benefit through coercion. Nobody is ever coerced into attending a meditation centre. In terms of those experts in extortion, the Mafia, they'll make you an offer you can easily refuse.
It’s there when you click on 10 day courses and requirements to attend.
Antigen testing required.
I can't find it. I've just gone through the application process, and I can't see a mention.
Extortion is the practice of obtaining something through force or threats. Basically the dhamma centres are saying if you don’t give up your property you cannot attend.
So it's not extortion, then, is it? Even if you think that snot is your "property", they've never acquired it from you, or from me. Compare that to real Mafia-style extortion, which makes you an offer you can't refuse. If you can politely decline Al Capone's offer to protect your business, he's not an extortionist but a private contractor.
The point is you cannot refuse without sacrificing the dhamma.
Basically they are saying “we have the dhamma, you can have it too, but the price is your property” if you decline then dhamma is not offered, you cannot attend.

It’s not as severe as the mafia example you offered but my point is the dhamma must be offered for free for ALL who are ready to receive. This spit, or a mask, or vaccine requirement is a price that not all can pay. I for example cannot comply with these costs. I am not the only one, even if I am part of a minute portion of the population.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:13 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:03 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:27 am

It’s there when you click on 10 day courses and requirements to attend.
Antigen testing required.
I can't find it. I've just gone through the application process, and I can't see a mention.
Extortion is the practice of obtaining something through force or threats. Basically the dhamma centres are saying if you don’t give up your property you cannot attend.
So it's not extortion, then, is it? Even if you think that snot is your "property", they've never acquired it from you, or from me. Compare that to real Mafia-style extortion, which makes you an offer you can't refuse. If you can politely decline Al Capone's offer to protect your business, he's not an extortionist but a private contractor.
The point is you cannot refuse without sacrificing the dhamma.
No, you can access the Dhamma elsewhere. Unless, of course, you think that Vipassana centres are the sole repositories of the Dhamma. Which would mean that the Dhamma died out until about 1970, when it mysteriously regenerated again.

It’s not as severe as the mafia example you offered but my point is the dhamma must be offered for free for ALL who are ready to receive
If that's so, then you are clearly not ready to receive. Some obstructive kamma, perhaps.
thepea
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:13 pm
thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:49 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:03 am

Sure. I told Jeff Bezos this, and he sent me a computer for free, along with a set of books by Bhikkhu Bodhi. And travel to retreat centres is free, you just show your Buddhist identity card.



Absolutely not. Extortion is a bad thing. But so far, I've seen no evidence of extortion.

Do you mean: "Do you support the right of a private organisation to impose conditions of entry upon would-be participants?"?

Why, yes, I do.
Travel to a centre is not dhamma, neither is ordering something from Amazon.
Nor is sitting in a big sex-segregated hall listening to tapes of Goenkaji, and not being allowed to talk. The Dhamma might well be free, but your snot-sample pays for the delivery mode. I can't think of anywhere it would be cheaper.
Dhamma MUST be offered for free to ALL ready to receive. If this condition is not met then it is not dhamma. This is the pristine purity of Dhamma that I was taught.
Must it? Obviously, then, you are not ready to receive.
Over the 10 days one is guided through sila, samadhi and the arising of panna can occur. This MUST be offered at no cost to be pure dhamma. This is the teachings of this tradition at least from Goenka and from what he says Sayagi U bha Khin also.
Like I mentioned previously I have already received the pure dhamma and through my service within this tradition hopefully helped many others to also.
From Goenkas mouth the dhamma must be at no cost:
How much does the course cost?

Each student who attends a Vipassana course is given this gift by a previous student. There is no charge for either the teaching, or for room and board. All Vipassana courses worldwide are run on a strictly voluntary donation basis. At the end of your course, if you have benefited from the experience, you are welcome to donate for the coming course, according to your volition and your means.
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