Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:02 pm Then with the snap of a finger “Covid” began and the centres closed. I made a trip to my home centre to talk with the teachers about this closure and they informed me that they had to follow local mandates or face closure. I personally disagreed with this but ultimately had to accept this. Then the mandates allowed for courses to resume with masks and vaccine passports and testing. I could not attend as I cannot participate in these. I was told that when mandates were dropped I would be first to be called to serve or sit.
The local mandates were dropped 1 year ago yet the Vipassana centres have kept in place these restrictions. When I question them I get no answer for this.
So..... it’s like you were an active welcome member of a family one day, and through zero actions of yours the next day you are exiled from this family and told not to return.

Ultimately I will be fine, but it’s heart breaking and confusing.
Who is responsible for these "local mandates"? Don't all Vipassana Centres worldwide function in pretty much the same way?

I ask because I've just looked at the UK site (I sat a few courses some time ago) and there is absolutely no mention of Covid restrictions. There is one link to a government site, advising travellers from overseas. It says there are no restrictions.

Is Canada so different? Are you near to the States?
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:09 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:42 pm
Radix wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:27 pm


It probably doesn't feel all that voluntary to someone who has invested a lot of time and energy into it already.
That's why I'm showing him facts rather than feelings.
It's a bit similar to the way a married spouse considers themselves to have rights over their spouse. Things between them were voluntary before they got married, but once married, they believe they have certain rights to eachother's bodies, money, time, etc..
Not very similar, though, considering how marriage is a legal contract, whereas attendance at a meditation centre is not.
The two of you are quasi asking Thepea to remain as if married to the Goenka organization, yet have no rights to it. Or else, suggesting, that it should be easy for him to separate himself from it.
No, I'm not doing that. I'm pointing out that disappointment around things changing is not best addressed by entering unarmed into the arena of political and legal philosophy. And there's this, of course:

viewtopic.php?p=703906#p703906
Sam, I can and will live without the Vipassana centre, but please try to see how this is a difficult pill to swallow.
One minute you are a welcomed loved part of the family and the next through zero action of yourself you are exiled without any reason other than the needs of the many out way the needs of the few.
Which loosely means that certain individuals at the centres are uncomfortable with the idea of being next to someone who is unvaccinated, not wearing a mask and will not test.
Their fear has exiled me from the family.
Yes, I get it, I really do. But see my last post. Surely this will end some time? It will either end with the Centres going back to normal, or with you finding a different way to meditate and new companions. And echoing what Retro said, why do you bring it up so often here? It's not as if anyone on DW can do anything about it, and ventilating about it for months doesn't seem to have helped you. I appreciate you were not the author of the OP, but maybe it's time to let go and re-establish equanimity.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:57 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:31 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:09 pm

So they are not, in fact, literally penetrating people's bodies.

Do you mean that they are literally dismembering people and taking part of their physical bodies?



I'm not sure what "trespass to property" means, but there are plenty of times when we treat people differently because of answers that they give to questions. Goenka Vipassana Centres have always debarred people who are not "old students" from certain activities, haven't they?
Where do they get the sample to test from, if not your body?
They don't take part of the body, which is what you say above.
The forms I’ve filled out in past were vague and were easy for anyone to answer using skillful speech to gain entrance.
That looks as if the centres tried to restrict people attending, but you think that was OK because they couldn't make the system work. The Vipassana centres offer a service, which you are not obliged to take. There are conditions attached to that service, and if you don't like the conditions, then you are free to avoid them by not taking up the service. As such, it is not coercion, any more than a credit card company requiring proof of address. If you don't like providing proof of address, you can do without the credit card.
Trespass to property is the breach of the peace. It’s an act of war against another. The body is each our own property for the duration of this life. To trespass upon another’s body against their will is a breach of peace. This is where sila is stemmed from. How can you teach dhamma in an environment where the peace is breached continuously?
This looks like the sort of quasi-legal stuff that non-lawyers use to bluff. Returning to Vipassana Centres, nobody's body is "trespassed upon" (whatever that means!) against their will, because they willingly take part in any testing. Their participation is entirely voluntary, so their acceptance of conditions in unforced.
With a test they want part of your body to test. Like giving a DNA sample, you can refuse. This is protected as ones property.

Again trespass is a breach of the peace. You can’t take my DNA without consent, to do so is a breach of peace or trespass of my property. Also to use coercion to forcibly obtain my DNA is considered duress, this also breaches the peace.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:27 pm
With a test they want part of your body to test. Like giving a DNA sample, you can refuse. This is protected as ones property.
Due to special circumstances in our family we have all taken loads of tests, and none of them involves giving up part of your body. It mainly seemed to be snot, which I don't mind parting with. And of course you can refuse, but people running private courses are allowed to discriminate as they think fit. Checking the UK Vipassana website again, there is no way they would let me do a 60 day course without me breaking a precept.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:26 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:09 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:42 pm

That's why I'm showing him facts rather than feelings.



Not very similar, though, considering how marriage is a legal contract, whereas attendance at a meditation centre is not.



No, I'm not doing that. I'm pointing out that disappointment around things changing is not best addressed by entering unarmed into the arena of political and legal philosophy. And there's this, of course:

viewtopic.php?p=703906#p703906
Sam, I can and will live without the Vipassana centre, but please try to see how this is a difficult pill to swallow.
One minute you are a welcomed loved part of the family and the next through zero action of yourself you are exiled without any reason other than the needs of the many out way the needs of the few.
Which loosely means that certain individuals at the centres are uncomfortable with the idea of being next to someone who is unvaccinated, not wearing a mask and will not test.
Their fear has exiled me from the family.
Yes, I get it, I really do. But see my last post. Surely this will end some time? It will either end with the Centres going back to normal, or with you finding a different way to meditate and new companions. And echoing what Retro said, why do you bring it up so often here? It's not as if anyone on DW can do anything about it, and ventilating about it for months doesn't seem to have helped you. I appreciate you were not the author of the OP, but maybe it's time to let go and re-establish equanimity.
Why do you say I’m not equanimous? I’m not being rude in my discussion here. I’m questioning and digging for answers.
What will this lead to? IDK, but it is an appropriate dhamma discussion. You may not like it but, I would like some answers to what is going on and the thinking behind these decisions.
Some compassion would be nice, I’ve spent three years getting zero answers and being lied to by centre management.
Yes, annicca everything changes but this seems to lack any common sense other than to segregate against anyone who says no to the vaccine or Covid mandates.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:33 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:27 pm
With a test they want part of your body to test. Like giving a DNA sample, you can refuse. This is protected as ones property.
Due to special circumstances in our family we have all taken loads of tests, and none of them involves giving up part of your body. It mainly seemed to be snot, which I don't mind parting with. And of course you can refuse, but people running private courses are allowed to discriminate as they think fit. Checking the UK Vipassana website again, there is no way they would let me do a 60 day course without me breaking a precept.
We seem to be in disagreement to what is body.
Is the blood running through your veins body?
Is the mucas body?
Is the puss body?
Is the urine and shit body?
Is bile and puss body?
Is sweat and oil secretions body?
Did the Buddha not ask us to observe these bodily formations to grow disenchantment to this form?

It is body and this is your property, you can give it away or you can keep it. If you don’t mind then this is your consent. I mind and say no. Coercion should not be used to steal the property of others it’s a breach of the precepts.

You answer the teachers questions before sitting a 60 day course, the teacher does not judge you as breaching precepts. If you answer yes to breaching precepts then they you will not meet the qualifications to sit 60 day but you could sit a ten day. You are not exiled from the family.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:26 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:09 pm

Sam, I can and will live without the Vipassana centre, but please try to see how this is a difficult pill to swallow.
One minute you are a welcomed loved part of the family and the next through zero action of yourself you are exiled without any reason other than the needs of the many out way the needs of the few.
Which loosely means that certain individuals at the centres are uncomfortable with the idea of being next to someone who is unvaccinated, not wearing a mask and will not test.
Their fear has exiled me from the family.
Yes, I get it, I really do. But see my last post. Surely this will end some time? It will either end with the Centres going back to normal, or with you finding a different way to meditate and new companions. And echoing what Retro said, why do you bring it up so often here? It's not as if anyone on DW can do anything about it, and ventilating about it for months doesn't seem to have helped you. I appreciate you were not the author of the OP, but maybe it's time to let go and re-establish equanimity.
Why do you say I’m not equanimous? I’m not being rude in my discussion here. I’m questioning and digging for answers.
What will this lead to? IDK, but it is an appropriate dhamma discussion. You may not like it but, I would like some answers to what is going on and the thinking behind these decisions.
Some compassion would be nice, I’ve spent three years getting zero answers and being lied to by centre management.
Yes, annicca everything changes but this seems to lack any common sense other than to segregate against anyone who says no to the vaccine or Covid mandates.
No, of course you are not being rude. I didn't mean that. I was talking about equanimity towards the issue you are complaining about. If it is difficult to bear, then some degree of equanimity is lacking.

And of course it is an appropriate Dhamma discussion, and so by the same token are all the responses.

I can't help with the answers from centre management, but you do honestly have my compassion. I don't have compassion fatigue, but I do have general fatigue after a long day, and it's time to turn in here. I wish you all the best - I genuinely do - and will pick up any more points in the morning. :anjali:
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:46 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:33 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:27 pm
With a test they want part of your body to test. Like giving a DNA sample, you can refuse. This is protected as ones property.
Due to special circumstances in our family we have all taken loads of tests, and none of them involves giving up part of your body. It mainly seemed to be snot, which I don't mind parting with. And of course you can refuse, but people running private courses are allowed to discriminate as they think fit. Checking the UK Vipassana website again, there is no way they would let me do a 60 day course without me breaking a precept.
We seem to be in disagreement to what is body.
Is the blood running through your veins body?
Is the mucas body?
Is the puss body?
Is the urine and shit body?
Is bile and puss body?
Is sweat and oil secretions body?
Did the Buddha not ask us to observe these bodily formations to grow disenchantment to this form?

It is body and this is your property, you can give it away or you can keep it. If you don’t mind then this is your consent. I mind and say no. Coercion should not be used to steal the property of others it’s a breach of the precepts.

You answer the teachers questions before sitting a 60 day course, the teacher does not judge you as breaching precepts. If you answer yes to breaching precepts then they you will not meet the qualifications to sit 60 day but you could sit a ten day. You are not exiled from the family.
Ah, one more answer, then!

The Buddha did indeed observe these bodily formations, and perhaps I have already grown disenchanted towards virus and bacteria and dust-filled snot. This is not mine, this is not what I am, this is not my self. In fact, you can have more of it, as I'll only be blowing it into a tissue and flushing it away soon. As I'm happy to donate it, it's not coercion. And if they refuse to accommodate you unless you donate it, it's not coercing you, either. Nobody can force you; they can just withhold something you want unless you donate. It's like buying a car. They are not coercing you into handing over money; you only hand it over if you want the car.

With regard to the precepts, I was thinking more about me knowing I had told a lie. I would judge myself, and that would not be a good start.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:48 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:26 pm

Yes, I get it, I really do. But see my last post. Surely this will end some time? It will either end with the Centres going back to normal, or with you finding a different way to meditate and new companions. And echoing what Retro said, why do you bring it up so often here? It's not as if anyone on DW can do anything about it, and ventilating about it for months doesn't seem to have helped you. I appreciate you were not the author of the OP, but maybe it's time to let go and re-establish equanimity.
Why do you say I’m not equanimous? I’m not being rude in my discussion here. I’m questioning and digging for answers.
What will this lead to? IDK, but it is an appropriate dhamma discussion. You may not like it but, I would like some answers to what is going on and the thinking behind these decisions.
Some compassion would be nice, I’ve spent three years getting zero answers and being lied to by centre management.
Yes, annicca everything changes but this seems to lack any common sense other than to segregate against anyone who says no to the vaccine or Covid mandates.
No, of course you are not being rude. I didn't mean that. I was talking about equanimity towards the issue you are complaining about. If it is difficult to bear, then some degree of equanimity is lacking.

And of course it is an appropriate Dhamma discussion, and so by the same token are all the responses.

I can't help with the answers from centre management, but you do honestly have my compassion. I don't have compassion fatigue, but I do have general fatigue after a long day, and it's time to turn in here. I wish you all the best - I genuinely do - and will pick up any more points in the morning. :anjali:
Complaining is the result of lack of transparent discussion.
There is a lack of desire for anyone to discuss this especially within the global centres of which I’ve called many to inquire.

If these centres would give a transparent common sense reason for their lockstep initiative to install these new health measures I would have no questions or complaints.
But when you were told initially that the primary reason was to avoid the centres being shut by government and then that threat is removed but centres still maintain and increase these health demands I must question and complain.
Texas centre is requiring vaccine passports even though Texas itself is wide open with zero health restrictions in place. It makes no sense.
India is requiring the health app is downloaded to mobile device and you must show a green healthy sign on your mobile device to gain entry.
So... now the poor without a mobile device cannot gain access to dhamma???
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:56 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:46 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:33 pm

Due to special circumstances in our family we have all taken loads of tests, and none of them involves giving up part of your body. It mainly seemed to be snot, which I don't mind parting with. And of course you can refuse, but people running private courses are allowed to discriminate as they think fit. Checking the UK Vipassana website again, there is no way they would let me do a 60 day course without me breaking a precept.
We seem to be in disagreement to what is body.
Is the blood running through your veins body?
Is the mucas body?
Is the puss body?
Is the urine and shit body?
Is bile and puss body?
Is sweat and oil secretions body?
Did the Buddha not ask us to observe these bodily formations to grow disenchantment to this form?

It is body and this is your property, you can give it away or you can keep it. If you don’t mind then this is your consent. I mind and say no. Coercion should not be used to steal the property of others it’s a breach of the precepts.

You answer the teachers questions before sitting a 60 day course, the teacher does not judge you as breaching precepts. If you answer yes to breaching precepts then they you will not meet the qualifications to sit 60 day but you could sit a ten day. You are not exiled from the family.
Ah, one more answer, then!

The Buddha did indeed observe these bodily formations, and perhaps I have already grown disenchanted towards virus and bacteria and dust-filled snot. This is not mine, this is not what I am, this is not my self. In fact, you can have more of it, as I'll only be blowing it into a tissue and flushing it away soon. As I'm happy to donate it, it's not coercion. And if they refuse to accommodate you unless you donate it, it's not coercing you, either. Nobody can force you; they can just withhold something you want unless you donate. It's like buying a car. They are not coercing you into handing over money; you only hand it over if you want the car.

With regard to the precepts, I was thinking more about me knowing I had told a lie. I would judge myself, and that would not be a good start.
So the dhamma which was meant to be delivered for free now has a pricetag, your snot.
I won’t pay.... the Buddha gives dhamma for free.
I won’t give two shits for the dhamma if forced or coerced.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Radix wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:51 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:15 pm Users who are obviously profoundly mentally ill with no desire to seriously address or acknowledge their mental illness often complain of things that are only an issue in their own head. It's part-and-parcel to the experience of "living in your own head." I imagine it's quite lonely and fuels a lot of these fruitless complaints concerning what, to others, are complete non-issues.
I don't personally care about the Goenka organization, but I can empathize with those who had been long-term members and who suddenly found themselves faced with a massive change in how things are done in said organization. That must be distressing. It looks like a situation that is conducive to a crisis of faith. Similar to seeing a monk and one's long-term teacher disrobe or get involved in a scandal.

Yes, there is the irony that they probably used to be taught there how to deal with unfavorable changes in life. But a teacher doesn't generally prepare his students for said teacher's eventual corruption; in a teacher-student relationship, there is generally the unspoken assumption that the teacher knows what he's doing and that he isn't going to become corrupt, this assumption being the basis of the trust that the student has in his teacher.
It’s not a crisis in faith for me. The technique has produced the fruit of knowing my ultimate self reality. I’m not in disbelief about the technique or the teacher(Mr.G). It’s the centre manegement and divisive new policy that I do not agree with or comprehend the morality of it.
It seems the Centres globally have been hijacked by a foreign element.
Of course one is taught to be independent, but not taught to blindly accept these new changes without question.
Everything used to be common sense orientated but now it’s like a clown system when management gets physically uncomfortable when you ask or question the logic behind their new policy changes.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:15 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:48 pm
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:36 pm

Why do you say I’m not equanimous? I’m not being rude in my discussion here. I’m questioning and digging for answers.
What will this lead to? IDK, but it is an appropriate dhamma discussion. You may not like it but, I would like some answers to what is going on and the thinking behind these decisions.
Some compassion would be nice, I’ve spent three years getting zero answers and being lied to by centre management.
Yes, annicca everything changes but this seems to lack any common sense other than to segregate against anyone who says no to the vaccine or Covid mandates.
No, of course you are not being rude. I didn't mean that. I was talking about equanimity towards the issue you are complaining about. If it is difficult to bear, then some degree of equanimity is lacking.

And of course it is an appropriate Dhamma discussion, and so by the same token are all the responses.

I can't help with the answers from centre management, but you do honestly have my compassion. I don't have compassion fatigue, but I do have general fatigue after a long day, and it's time to turn in here. I wish you all the best - I genuinely do - and will pick up any more points in the morning. :anjali:
Complaining is the result of lack of transparent discussion.
There is a lack of desire for anyone to discuss this especially within the global centres of which I’ve called many to inquire.

If these centres would give a transparent common sense reason for their lockstep initiative to install these new health measures I would have no questions or complaints.
But when you were told initially that the primary reason was to avoid the centres being shut by government and then that threat is removed but centres still maintain and increase these health demands I must question and complain.
Texas centre is requiring vaccine passports even though Texas itself is wide open with zero health restrictions in place. It makes no sense.
India is requiring the health app is downloaded to mobile device and you must show a green healthy sign on your mobile device to gain entry.
So... now the poor without a mobile device cannot gain access to dhamma???
So you are worried about India when you could get to Texas or the UK and practice without restriction.

Do you think you are likely to receive satisfactory answers about a private organisation's policies here on DW? Are some of the members responsible for the health restrictions?
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:19 pm
So the dhamma which was meant to be delivered for free now has a pricetag, your snot.
I won’t pay.... the Buddha gives dhamma for free.
The Buddha gave Dhamma for free, but we have all paid money already to access it. Tomes by Bikkhu Bodhi, computers so we can access on-line suttas and video Dhamma-talks, and travel to centres. If I was a devotee of sitting in a big hall with others, listening to tapes by Goenkaji, all absolutely free, I would think that a smear of mucus was a pretty good bargain.
I won’t give two shits for the dhamma if forced or coerced.


If they are asking for that, it's probably e. coli they are testing for. :D
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by thepea »

Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:12 am
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:15 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:48 pm

No, of course you are not being rude. I didn't mean that. I was talking about equanimity towards the issue you are complaining about. If it is difficult to bear, then some degree of equanimity is lacking.

And of course it is an appropriate Dhamma discussion, and so by the same token are all the responses.

I can't help with the answers from centre management, but you do honestly have my compassion. I don't have compassion fatigue, but I do have general fatigue after a long day, and it's time to turn in here. I wish you all the best - I genuinely do - and will pick up any more points in the morning. :anjali:
Complaining is the result of lack of transparent discussion.
There is a lack of desire for anyone to discuss this especially within the global centres of which I’ve called many to inquire.

If these centres would give a transparent common sense reason for their lockstep initiative to install these new health measures I would have no questions or complaints.
But when you were told initially that the primary reason was to avoid the centres being shut by government and then that threat is removed but centres still maintain and increase these health demands I must question and complain.
Texas centre is requiring vaccine passports even though Texas itself is wide open with zero health restrictions in place. It makes no sense.
India is requiring the health app is downloaded to mobile device and you must show a green healthy sign on your mobile device to gain entry.
So... now the poor without a mobile device cannot gain access to dhamma???
So you are worried about India when you could get to Texas or the UK and practice without restriction.

Do you think you are likely to receive satisfactory answers about a private organisation's policies here on DW? Are some of the members responsible for the health restrictions?
Texas Vipassana centre is similarly requiring vaccination/masking and testing as pricetag to sit courses.
India is simply taking it further with a mobile “safe” app requirement.
There are no centres in North America where I can visit. They all have adopted these new health policies.
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Re: Could South Korea be the Promised Land for Goenka's Righteous Remnant?

Post by Sam Vara »

thepea wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:28 am
Sam Vara wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:12 am
thepea wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:15 pm

Complaining is the result of lack of transparent discussion.
There is a lack of desire for anyone to discuss this especially within the global centres of which I’ve called many to inquire.

If these centres would give a transparent common sense reason for their lockstep initiative to install these new health measures I would have no questions or complaints.
But when you were told initially that the primary reason was to avoid the centres being shut by government and then that threat is removed but centres still maintain and increase these health demands I must question and complain.
Texas centre is requiring vaccine passports even though Texas itself is wide open with zero health restrictions in place. It makes no sense.
India is requiring the health app is downloaded to mobile device and you must show a green healthy sign on your mobile device to gain entry.
So... now the poor without a mobile device cannot gain access to dhamma???
So you are worried about India when you could get to Texas or the UK and practice without restriction.

Do you think you are likely to receive satisfactory answers about a private organisation's policies here on DW? Are some of the members responsible for the health restrictions?
Texas Vipassana centre is similarly requiring vaccination/masking and testing as pricetag to sit courses.
India is simply taking it further with a mobile “safe” app requirement.
There are no centres in North America where I can visit. They all have adopted these new health policies.
UK, then. I'll buy you a coffee.
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