Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

[Pulsar]

Theravada C wrote

In the past however the āsavā were active, and because of that the Buddha has a body which he carries around. With a body comes various diseases and pain.

Where in the sutta pitaka does it say that "asavas that prevailed before enlightenment are responsible for the body of the Arahant" after enlightenment?
In MN 121 we find

There is present only this non-voidness, namely that connected with the six sense bases that are dependent on the body and conditioned by life

Buddha admits there are sense bases left on a body conditioned by life. He does not say sense bases left on the Arahant's body is conditioned by asava.

That is your invention, in "Anything goes wheel"? You keep reinventing Buddha Dhamma but surely it is not the first time.
With love

[Ceisiwr]

Where in the sutta pitaka does it say that "asavas that prevailed before enlightenment are responsible for the body of the Arahants" after enlightenment?

"When I was an unawakened bodhisatta"

“And what, bhikkhus, is old kamma? The body is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt."

Or just about any sutta on dependent origination. When the taints are active, a body originates.

In MN 121 we find

There is present only this non-voidness, namely that connected with the six sense bases that are dependent on the body and conditioned by life

Buddha admits there are sense bases left on a body conditioned by life. He does not say sense bases left on the Arahant's body is conditioned by asava.

The six sense bases originate with ignorance as a condition. The Buddha is saying here he still experiences the six sense bases. He experiences them, because he was ignorant in the past. In the past he was an unawakened bodhisatta. In the past he performed kamma (formations). Awakening can't undo the past.

[mikenz66]

There are simply just the five aggregates which also include the mind/consciousness. It is not that the awakened ones still have the five aggregates.

Yes, I've never understood the idea that there are two types of aggregates and an arahant has the "non-clinging" type. Of course the arahant doesn't cling, but I don't get how to define "clinging form"/"non clinging form", etc.

The two types of aggregates are there in the suttas and the difference between the Nikayas and the Agamas is subtle but important:

“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate. Whatever kind of feeling there is … this is called the feeling aggregate. Whatever kind of perception there is … this is called the perception aggregate. Whatever kind of volitional formations there are … these are called the volitional formations aggregate. Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates.

“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates subject to clinging? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present … far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the form aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of feeling there is … that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the feeling aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of perception there is … that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the perception aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of volitional formations there are … that are tainted, that can be clung to: these are called the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates subject to clinging.”

And SA55 translated from indonesian (Which is usually very correct since it is translated from a professional translation of modern indonesian)

At that time the Gracious One said to the monks: "I will now teach you the aggregates and the clinging aggregates. What is the aggregates? Whatever bodily form, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, beautiful or repulsive, far or near, all these together are called the bodily form aggregate. "Likewise, whatever feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is also like this. All of them together are called the feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness aggregate. This is called the aggregates of life.

"What is the clinging aggregates? It is if bodily form is together with the influxes and there is clinging, if in regard to that bodily form-whether it is past, future, or present- one gives rise to craving, hatred, delusion, and also various other types of additional suffering that become objects of the mind. Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is also like this. This is called the clinging aggregates.

https://suttacentral.net/sa55/id/ariyak ... ight=false

I think that one can choose the definition from one of the two: if we take the nikayas the clinging-aggregate seems what is potentialy clingable (and that could be why the arahant can still attend to the clinging-aggregates without problem) while if we take the provisional SA55 translation is bodily form only when there are influxes present and only if one in regard to that craving is generated, they are the clinging-aggregates type.

Edit: it seems that the distinction "that is tainted" in the Nikaya btw could point a little more into the direction of the agama's sense because actually volitions of an Arahant would be tainted as well? I think that the only answer is "no" and that is why the arahant for example doesn't experience/give rise to the clinging-aggregate of volition, but only to the aggregate of volition or the non-ignorant volition.

Ah, thanks for that.
The Sujato translation of SN22.48:
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.48/en/suj ... ript=latin

And what are the five aggregates?
Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near: this is called the aggregate of form.
...
And what are the five grasping aggregates?
Any kind of form at all—past, future, or present; internal or external; coarse or fine; inferior or superior; far or near, which is accompanied by defilements and is prone to being grasped: this is called the aggregate of form connected with grasping.

I previously quoted SN22.122.
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/su ... ript=latin

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as an abscess, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self.
A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement.

It's interesting to compare these two suttas in light of your statement:

Edit: it seems that the distinction "that is tainted" in the Nikaya btw could point a little more into the direction of the agama's sense because actually volitions of an Arahant would be tainted as well? I think that the only answer is "no" and that is why the arahant for example doesn't experience/give rise to the clinging-aggregate of volition, but only to the aggregate of volition or the non-ignorant volition.

If the Arahant is attending to grasping aggregates, are they tainted?


Mike

[SarathW]

Arahants possess "Kiriya" citta.
They are neither wholesome nor unwholesome.
Just the action without grasping or clinging.

[Pulsar]

Theravada C. wrote

Or just about any sutta on dependent origination. When the taints are active, a body originates.

Yes that is the body/Rupa of Nama-Rupa. What do you think? Is rupa of Nama-rupa a physical body or mental body?
If you answer it is a physical body, you are interpreting Nama-rupa as some later schools did.
What do you think Buddha meant by rupa of Nama-rupa? Paticca-samuppada is about suffering originated mentally.
with love

[Ceisiwr]

What do you think? Is rupa of Nama-rupa a physical body or mental body?

It’s both.

[Pulsar]

C wrote

The six sense bases originate with ignorance as a condition

Are you implying Buddha still had ignorance after the awakening? How do you understand the six sense bases in Salayatana?
Is there any sutta that says Buddha was still ignorant after the Awakening? Not in the Buddhist canon that I read. An ignorant Sammasambuddha sounds like an oxymoron to me.
With love

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

Starting with Anicca...

Good of you to take a look at anicca.

As I see it, the reason that outsiders cannot discern the Dhamma, and also why many Buddhists themselves struggle to, is because of a non-understanding of paticcasamuppada, and more specifically, the principle of idappaccayatā that it embodies. Not understanding, they do not understand the scope of what these principles entail, and perhaps just as importantly, what they do not entail.

As such, any external critique of the Dhamma is going to be based from a position of non-understanding. That's just how it is.

Metta,
Paul.

[Pulsar]

C wrote

rupa in Nama-rupa is both physical and mental

You appear to think like Abhidhammikas do. How do the Abhidhamma followers get rid of suffering? Do they have to destroy physical bodies?
Dependent Originated can be abolished by getting rid of rupa. If rupa in mind does not appear due to absence of craving, there is nothing to be identified with (No Nama). Problem is solved by getting rid of craving.
But if rupa in Nama-rupa is physical, getting rid of craving will have no impact on getting rid of physical bodies surrounding us. Do you see my point?
Problem not solved.
In order to solve the problem, one must comprehend Buddha's profound teaching, as he taught it.
Perhaps an ordinary mind is incapable of doing so? is not capable of that profound understanding?
Buddha was reluctant to teach, at the beginning, Sutta Pitaka writes.
He probably thought everyone will think like you do, that rupa in Nama-rupa is both physical and mental.
You prove him right, his initial reluctance.
With love
PS just noticed Retro's post, confirms my suspicion.

[equilibrium]

I would say that the mind of Arahant is impermanent as it will not arise again after his death (Parinibbana) …..

3 contradictory issues here in red:
1. If mind is impermanent, then there is no possibility of escape.
2. There is no need to arise again due to 3.
3. Arahants are not born, as they are not born, therefore do not die. …..death is an impossibility. ….. parinibbana would not be possible.

Perhaps some text for thoughts:

AN 1.49-52:
"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements."

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements."

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind."

"Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind."

MN 140:
the sage at peace is not born, does not age, does not die.

Just as a red, blue, or white lotus born in the water and growing in the water, rises up above the water and stands with no water adhering to it, in the same way the Tathagata — freed, dissociated, & released from these ten things — dwells with unrestricted awareness."

Remember me as awakened.

[pegembara]

Dependently originated and anicca are the facts of the "all". The Buddha doesn't end impermanence, ends Dukkha by ending craving.

Dependent origination is complicated in many ways, but it is not complicated to see it in the aggregates of form, so uncomplicated that even worldings can detach from forms, it is the mind that they can't detach (don't remember the sutta, sorry, I think that you know which one I'm talking about).

So you have somewhere to go to after your body dies like heaven, Pureland, Valhalla, paradise, the underworld of Egyptians or Greeks, syurga etc.

"Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[pegembara]

Hence Arahant is called the Sage at Peace.
"Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born,
does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing.
He has nothing whereby he would be born.
Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.'
Clearly this excerpt says there is no aging for the Arahant.

If you are not the body, how can you age or die? Without a body, how can you go from here to there? This body doesn't need to be only physical/material even. Rupa=elements and their derivatives.
One who no longer identifies with the body ie. realizes that he is actually not the body cannot be said to have been born and subject to all that birth entails.

"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Pulsar]

Pegembara wrote

If you are not the body, how can you age or die? Without a body, how can you go from here to there?

Are you referring to Pulsar or the Arahant? You are responding to the verse that says ...

A sage at peace is not born

From some comments on the forum, I get the feeling that some on the forum, literally translate the passage.

• It is not meant to be literal.

What do you think happens to the Arahant upon Awakening? In the sense of Paticca samuppada, he does not generate form/body, neither name, hence he does not generate worldly consciousness due to the interaction of Nama-Rupa.
He is done with that aspect of it. All the links of DO are broken when one link is severed, no more vinnana that divides the mind into object and subject.
But some folks jump to the conclusion that this means "Arahant is unconscious"
Quite the opposite, and far from that notion, he/she does not generate a consciousness like the puthujjana,
due to ignorance.
Ignorance is removed at final Awakening.
But this first step has been reinterpreted by later schools. I have no comments about these reinterpretations.
But one can always go to the suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya with parallels, (Bodhi has said it is closest to Buddha) and find the meaning of body/form in Paticca samuppada. Body and mind otherwise is a different matter. One must not superimpose the latter on the former.
With love

[mjaviem]

... Is rupa of Nama-rupa a physical body or mental body?
... Paticca-samuppada is about suffering originated mentally...

Hi Pulsar. What is this physical about when you make this distinction physical vs mental? Are these physical things dukkha or not? Are they conditioned and impermanent or not?

[auto]

..

sn sutta

For an astute person shrouded by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced. But the astute person has given up that ignorance and finished that craving.
Yāya ca, bhikkhave, avijjāya nivutassa paṇḍitassa yāya ca taṇhāya sampayuttassa ayaṁ kāyo samudāgato, sā ceva avijjā paṇḍitassa pahīnā, sā ca taṇhā parikkhīṇā.