Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

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SarathW
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by SarathW »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:35 am
pegembara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:45 am There are simply just the five aggregates which also include the mind/consciousness. It is not that the awakened ones still have the five aggregates.
Yes, I've never understood the idea that there are two types of aggregates and an arahant has the "non-clinging" type. Of course the arahant doesn't cling, but I don't get how to define "clinging form"/"non clinging form", etc.
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:40 pm
“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should also properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as a boil, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/su ... ript=latin
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Mike
To me, it is like a person who steals and there is a person who does not steal.
We call One is a thief and another person not.

I think clinging form refers to clinging to form,

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Re: Re:

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:41 pm In order to arouse dissatisfaction with the entire world, you have to see how it is all just a mass of dukkha.
And then what? Again, you seem to be stuck on the First NobleTruth.
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Re:

Post by Spiny Norman »

sunnat wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:04 pm Further he exhorted disciples to strive ardently which is another way of saying ‘maintain continuous awareness of anicca’. The result is the end of suffering.
Yes, and presumably the point of continuous awareness of anicca is the cessation of craving and clinging, as per the Third Noble Truth.
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by mikenz66 »

pegembara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:49 am Aggregates are aggregates. What you do with or think of them is where the difference lies.
Yes, that's my view. They can be clung to or not.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Re:

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:08 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:41 pm In order to arouse dissatisfaction with the entire world, you have to see how it is all just a mass of dukkha.
And then what? Again, you seem to be stuck on the First NobleTruth.
Then you let go. You seem to be stuck on one half of the First Noble Truth ;)
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Re:

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:46 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:08 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:41 pm In order to arouse dissatisfaction with the entire world, you have to see how it is all just a mass of dukkha.
And then what? Again, you seem to be stuck on the First NobleTruth.
Then you let go. You seem to be stuck on one half of the First Noble Truth ;)
Right, so we need to move on to the Third Noble Truth, which describes the cessation of craving and dukkha.
As for the First Truth, your view seems to be that we can get rid of one half, but not the other, as per the Arrow Sutta. But you then say that all conditioned experience is dukkha, and life is suffering, so we can't escape suffering in this lifetime anyway.
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sunnat
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(s norman) Re: post Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:11 am

Post by sunnat »

Yes. This is the path in a nutshell. What remains is training, according to instructions, to (as Sayagyi U Ba Khin, perhaps misleadingly, calls ‘awakening anicca’) cultivate the awareness of anicca. Learning through direct meditative experience what the liberating anicca really is and then keeping awareness anchored to the experience. Words are just words. It’s the experiential knowledge that is true knowledge (panna). Anicca is to be experienced in order to be known.
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Re: Re:

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:54 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:46 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:08 am

And then what? Again, you seem to be stuck on the First NobleTruth.
Then you let go. You seem to be stuck on one half of the First Noble Truth ;)
Right, so we need to move on to the Third Noble Truth, which describes the cessation of craving and dukkha.
As for the First Truth, your view seems to be that we can get rid of one half, but not the other, as per the Arrow Sutta. But you then say that all conditioned experience is dukkha, and life is suffering, so we can't escape suffering in this lifetime anyway.
Well, no. You need to take into account the whole of the 1st Noble Truth first. You seem to think that awakening abolishes actions in the past. If you don’t, then you should see how there is still dukkha for Buddhas and Arahants. They bear their final body, and that body was dependently originated. Everything dependently originated is dukkha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Re:

Post by Spiny Norman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:23 am
Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:54 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:46 am

Then you let go. You seem to be stuck on one half of the First Noble Truth ;)
Right, so we need to move on to the Third Noble Truth, which describes the cessation of craving and dukkha.
As for the First Truth, your view seems to be that we can get rid of one half, but not the other, as per the Arrow Sutta. But you then say that all conditioned experience is dukkha, and life is suffering, so we can't escape suffering in this lifetime anyway.
Well, no. You need to take into account the whole of the 1st Noble Truth first. You seem to think that awakening abolishes actions in the past. If you don’t, then you should see how there is still dukkha for Buddhas and Arahants. They bear their final body, and that body was dependently originated. Everything dependently originated is dukkha.
Which aspects of dukkha do you think have actually ceased for the Arahant?
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by nirodh27 »

Thank you very much to everyone that partecipated! I think that now the topic has taken a route of its own so it is better to follow the flow :smile:

Based on my research and on what was collected here, passages about Anicca (that are not simply the linkage of impermanence = Dukkha that are everywhere) are not very frequent in the suttas, but what can be gathered is that momentariness is not there except on very few (one?) passage and that btw pairs well with the analysis of Analayo that says that momentariness is a later idea (if helpful of not, it is another matter).

Anicca is something that arises, persist for an indefinite amount with an indefinite amount of change and then ends. For the 4-mind aggregates, the time which they persists is very brief, while the body is seen to arise, persist, degrate and end in a lifetime. For what is worth to us (the five aggregates) the one that persists the most is the body and that is certainly interesting in various ways, to counter the magic-trick of consciousness as an enduring-thing for example.

Just as there are degrees of Dukkha (Dukkha can be minor or major) so it so for anicca that is diverse in duration and stability, because there are things that persist more (for what interest to us, persist more as pleasant), that are more stable and reliable and others that are way less stable. Jhanas being the more stable and reliable of all that we can imagine bar Nibbana.

Ofc, nothing is reliable to the point to take it as our own, to make an appropriation as mine and avoid the anxiety that every acquisition entails. Not even the experience of the Unconditioned. Even if we could find something that doesn't end or that will certainly not end in our lifetime, the fact of change of the aggregates while persisting will still expose us to the danger of Dukkha because the change could be unpleasant for us.

About the relationship Anicca > Dukkha

There's no possession without potential Dukkha, because for example an house that we possess for a lifetime can still be subject to change and our possession be threatened while we are alive, but at the same time it is untenable that a house is "Suffering" without making some distinctions on the word Dukkha.

The Dukkha is not that the house will end with certainty, but that can change for us while we are alive so the anxiety and stress that possession entails sometimes. In fact not all the potential Dukkha will ever manifest and instead to possess a house for all our life can be a source of happiness: since we have a limited control on the conditions, the Dukkha that will manifest will be in degrees that we cannot control as well (provided that we have made the acquisition/appropriation/attachment to the house ofc ;) ).

Analayo is very wise in his analysis and I suggest this reading to everyone:
Another and rather crucial aspect of the Cū5avedalla-sutta's presentation is that not only will pleasant feelings eventually
cause the experience of unpleasantness, once they change and become otherwise, but unpleasant feelings can cause the pleas-
ure of relief once they change and disappear. This perspective is significant in so far as it provides a necessary background to
the statement that whatever is felt is included within dukkha
, ya kiñci vedayita ta dukkhasmi (SN II 53).
Much hinges on a proper translation of the term dukkha in such a context. If one were to opt for the most commonly used
translation of dukkha as "suffering", this passage would pro-pose that all felt experience is to be included under the heading
of `suffering'. In the light of the above passage from the Cū5a-vedalla-sutta, such a conclusion would meet with difficulties,
since though the presence of unpleasant feelings may be ex-perienced as `suffering', the presence of pleasant feelings is
certainly not experienced as `suffering'
, and the two are, ac-cording to the dictum of the Mahānidāna-sutta, mutually ex-
clusive experiences.
When the future change of both feelings is considered, one could attribute the qualification `suffering' to pleasant feeling,
as its change leads to displeasure. Yet, in order to appropriately treat the effects of future change, one would also have to take
into consideration the change of unpleasant feeling, and such a change, as the Cū5avedalla-sutta clarifies, is experienced as
pleasant and not as `suffering'.
Hence the Cū5avedalla-sutta's presentation reveals the limi-tations of the translation "suffering", making it advisable to adopt a different translation of the term dukkha in such a con-text. An alternative would be, for example, the term "unsatis-
factory". Though pleasant feeling is pleasant while it lasts, it is still unsatisfactory, precisely because it does not last forever.
According to another passage, this is in fact the implication of the dictum that whatever is felt is included within dukkha,
namely that all felt experience is unsatisfactory, however pleasant it may be at present, because it does not last (SN IV 216
This pair well to the distinction that I've sometimes made: there's distinction about the Dukkha that we can feel and that is not always there and the potential felt Dukkha that is not there and can or cannot manifest that is the "Dukkha if we cling to x" that relates to the unsatisfactoriness part and that is not yet felt and can be avoided with dispassion, taking the escape before it happens. If we miss this, it is hard to make sense of the third noble truth and evaluate it for ourselves, being certain that it works.
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nirodh27
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by nirodh27 »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:51 am We need to see dependent origination to understand anicca.
Dependently originated and anicca are the facts of the "all". The Buddha doesn't end impermanence, ends Dukkha by ending craving.

Dependent origination is complicated in many ways, but it is not complicated to see it in the aggregates of form, so uncomplicated that even worldings can detach from forms, it is the mind that they can't detach (don't remember the sutta, sorry, I think that you know which one I'm talking about).

As Sasha_A pointed out:
The problem of dukkha is not a problem in general, but a problem of 'mine' and 'for me'.
Anicca is the reason why it is better to not crave if an alternative is on the table. Because non-craving avoids you to expose to present and future Dukkha.
Why shouldn't one take the sun as permanent and mine or myself
You can. You will discover that:

- The delight that can give you is limited.
- It is not always there for you..
- It is not always pleasant for you.
- It is not always pleasant for you.
- The sensations that can give to you are incostant as well.
- It is not always suitable to distract you from other Dukkha (if you want a girlfriend, it is unlikely that enjoy a sunrise will end the craving)
- It is not underyourcontrol and can bite you back (you might want to see it when it is not there).

This is just a limited list of the drawbacks of the conditioned that doesn't need the sun to end to make it unfit to call it self.

To call something self is to have found something that ends our quest for happiness. But our quest for an happiness that is not liable to end is impossible, because us is conditioned as well so impermanent so Dukkha in the sense of potential Dukkha around the corner and anxiety lurking beneath (I've removed the always because they are not always there).
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by nirodh27 »

Sasha_A wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 1:56 pm
But the doctrine of flux is a doctrine of certainty: everything is always changing. It is therefore a falsification of our manifest awareness of the world’s unreliability: things change when we expect (and wish) them not to. The need to hold to and proclaim this doctrine is thus revealed for what it is: not a coming to truth but a fleeing from it. In the face of the world’s insecurity the doctrine of flux is an attempt to retreat into a position of certainty.

Yet despite our efforts we cannot change the fact that things change and become otherwise. What can be altered is our attachment to the things of the world whether or not they are in a state of flux. To make observance of flux the basis of one’s efforts, then, at minimum misses the point by going too far (atidhāvati: to overshoot the mark). It is a misdirection of effort. It diverts us from the task of recognizing our own inappropriate efforts to appropriate the world, steering us to a less relevant (but far easier) effort to perceive in the world our own notions about the world.

Rather than perceive impermanence as the decay and decrepitude of old age, as the weakening of the faculties, the loss of control over the body, the gasping for air as life ebbs, the fearsome uncontrollable slide from light to darkness as our very identity — body, perception, consciousness, all — fades away and breaks up — rather than perceive impermanence as that, how much more comfortable to blandly assert that everything is always changing, and thereby to move from the threatening and vertiginous perceptual realm to the safely exorcised sphere of the conceptual, while at the same time concealing this entire movement by a dialectical dance of complacency. No, change is involved with suffering not because of change per se but because things do not remain the way we wish them to remain even when the way we wish them to be is “to be changing.”
This is very important, thank you! That is why I think that the most important Anicca there is the most evident one and that is why I think the Buddha didn't speculate on them, because it is something that it is immediately visible and we ignore not because we are not intelligent, but because looking at it causes more anxiety.

That is why one of the most precious teachings (and one of the main themes of his talks) of Sumedho for me was the "willingness to stay with the unpleasant, to welcome it, bear it until the realization comes", don't run away from it and bring the distress to the point that one can find it unbearable and that is the moment in which one can, maybe, let it all end.
Sumedho: The mind is not just some kind of thing in the skull, so awareness brings a sense of expansion, of being connected, of being unlimited, infinite, immeasurable. Awareness – which is not fixed on just one object – is open and receptive, wide, never attached to just one little
thing. That is what we call intuitive awareness. Whatever pleasant, unpleasant, miserable emotions or boring thoughts come, just welcome
them. Open the doors of the prison to liberate these stupid thoughts and feelings, rather than just thinking you don’t want to have them
Thank you! :hug:
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by nirodh27 »

mikenz66 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:35 am
pegembara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:45 am There are simply just the five aggregates which also include the mind/consciousness. It is not that the awakened ones still have the five aggregates.
Yes, I've never understood the idea that there are two types of aggregates and an arahant has the "non-clinging" type. Of course the arahant doesn't cling, but I don't get how to define "clinging form"/"non clinging form", etc.
The two types of aggregates are there in the suttas and the difference between the Nikayas and the Agamas is subtle but important:
“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the form aggregate. Whatever kind of feeling there is … this is called the feeling aggregate. Whatever kind of perception there is … this is called the perception aggregate. Whatever kind of volitional formations there are … these are called the volitional formations aggregate. Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near: this is called the consciousness aggregate. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates.

“And what, bhikkhus, are the five aggregates subject to clinging? Whatever kind of form there is, whether past, future, or present … far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the form aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of feeling there is … that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the feeling aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of perception there is … that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the perception aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of volitional formations there are … that are tainted, that can be clung to: these are called the volitional formations aggregate subject to clinging. Whatever kind of consciousness there is, whether past, future, or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, inferior or superior, far or near, that is tainted, that can be clung to: this is called the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging. These, bhikkhus, are called the five aggregates subject to clinging.”
And SA55 translated from indonesian (Which is usually very correct since it is translated from a professional translation of modern indonesian)
At that time the Gracious One said to the monks: "I will now teach you the aggregates and the clinging aggregates. What is the aggregates? Whatever bodily form, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, beautiful or repulsive, far or near, all these together are called the bodily form aggregate. "Likewise, whatever feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is also like this. All of them together are called the feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness aggregate. This is called the aggregates of life.

"What is the clinging aggregates? It is if bodily form is together with the influxes and there is clinging, if in regard to that bodily form-whether it is past, future, or present- one gives rise to craving, hatred, delusion, and also various other types of additional suffering that become objects of the mind. Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is also like this. This is called the clinging aggregates.
https://suttacentral.net/sa55/id/ariyak ... ight=false

I think that one can choose the definition from one of the two: if we take the nikayas the clinging-aggregate seems what is potentialy clingable (and that could be why the arahant can still attend to the clinging-aggregates without problem) while if we take the provisional SA55 translation is bodily form only when there are influxes present and only if one in regard to that craving is generated, they are the clinging-aggregates type.

Edit: it seems that the distinction "that is tainted" in the Nikaya btw could point a little more into the direction of the agama's sense because actually volitions of an Arahant would be tainted as well? I think that the only answer is "no" and that is why the arahant for example doesn't experience/give rise to the clinging-aggregate of volition, but only to the aggregate of volition or the non-ignorant volition.
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by mjaviem »

nirodh27 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:33 am
mjaviem wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:51 am We need to see dependent origination to understand anicca.
Dependently originated and anicca are the facts of the "all". The Buddha doesn't end impermanence, ends Dukkha by ending craving.

...

As Sasha_A pointed out:
The problem of dukkha is not a problem in general, but a problem of 'mine' and 'for me'.
...
Ending craving ends "the all" so there's no point of thinking in terms of anicca when there's no more "the all". The thing with you is that you don't believe in complete cessation.
nirodh27 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 11:33 am ...
Dependent origination is complicated in many ways, but it is not complicated to see it in the aggregates of form, so uncomplicated that even worldings can detach from forms, it is the mind that they can't detach (don't remember the sutta, sorry, I think that you know which one I'm talking about).
...
Wordlings will always have doubts and would think that there might be one kind of form which could be somehow permanent. They don't have the understanding of DO so they only understand that people die and bodies get buried. This is not real understanding of impermanence, this is only being on track about it. And yes, don't worry, I know what sutta you mean.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by nirodh27 »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:39 pm Wordlings will always have doubts and would think that there might be one kind of form which could be somehow permanent. They don't have the understanding of DO so they only understand that people die and bodies get buried. This is not real understanding of impermanence, this is only being on track about it. And yes, don't worry, I know what sutta you mean.
Hi mjaviem,
This is not real understanding of impermanence
Btw some of them, as the sutta says, even get dispassion and release from form. Not special people, but "uninstructed run-of-the-mill person" can do that. Anicca is the starting point that is seen as evident for the body, what is the real understanding of impermanence towards the body that a person that got release in the terms of 12.61 lacks?. Impermanence of mind is hard to see, without doubt, but as far as the body is concerned? Here it seems that it is sufficient to get release to look at the impermanence of body and get disgusted about his nature, one doesn't have to understand 12-link DO for the body.

You said:
I understand anicca as "can't last" and "can't be trusted".
This is surely something that, for the body, even a worlding can understand or see, no? It might desire another body or an immortal body (so he can get attached to an idea, a hope) or a replacement, but as far as his body that is now old, what is the real understanding he lacks?

With metta.

12.61 btw, here it is for others if they are interested:
I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Monks, an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted with this body composed of the four great elements, might grow dispassionate toward it, might gain release from it. Why is that? Because the growth & decline, the taking up & putting down of this body composed of the four great elements are apparent. Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person might grow disenchanted, might grow dispassionate, might gain release there.

"But as for what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness,' the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it. Why is that? For a long time this has been relished, appropriated, and grasped by the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person as, 'This is me, this is my self, this is what I am.' Thus the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is unable to grow disenchanted with it, unable to grow dispassionate toward it, unable to gain release from it.

"It would be better for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person to hold to the body composed of the four great elements, rather than the mind, as the self. Why is that? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for a year, two years, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred years or more. But what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another. Just as a monkey, swinging through a forest wilderness, grabs a branch. Letting go of it, it grabs another branch. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. Letting go of that, it grabs another one. In the same way, what's called 'mind,' 'intellect,' or 'consciousness' by day and by night arises as one thing and ceases as another.
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