Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

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mjaviem
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by mjaviem »

Yes, indeed.

Anicca is about what is dependently originated. Being originated and dependent makes it untrustworthy. But how is it that form is dependently originated?
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Sasha_A »

mjaviem wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:07 pmAnicca is about what is dependently originated. Being originated and dependent makes it untrustworthy.
But what if the origin of anicca is you, i.e. you have full control over it, then things of such origin are still not trustworthy?

Dependent origination is also only about who or what controls the anicca of all that you consider yourself and yours. Because dukkha is the subjection to the unwanted anicca of only that you consider yourself and yours.
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
- SN5.10
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sasha_A wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:29 pm
mjaviem wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:07 pmAnicca is about what is dependently originated. Being originated and dependent makes it untrustworthy.
But what if the origin of anicca is you, i.e. you have full control over it, then things of such origin are still not trustworthy?

Dependent origination is also only about who or what controls the anicca of all that you consider yourself and yours. Because dukkha is the subjection to the unwanted anicca of only that you consider yourself and yours.
I don’t quite understand what you are saying here?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Pulsar
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Pulsar »

mjaviem wrote
But how is it that form is dependently originated?
good question.
Here is the answer, form in paticca samuppada arises in the mind due to craving, many think form in DO is a physical object.
If it was a physical body (form of a woman, of a man) why would Buddha ask Radha to destroy form?, as little kids on the shore would create sandcastles and destroy them, when they lose interest. (Radha Samyutta).
Surely Buddha was not asking Radha to go out and kill living people???? Was he?

Probably it takes lifetimes for some to understand the Paticca samuppada as Buddha taught it. It has been veiled by the understanding of later schools, so much so that if Buddha appeared on this forum, hardly anyone would recognize him? I did not say no one.
Did not Radix once say "Would Buddha choose to appear on this forum?
That was a good question? thought provoking? Radix occasionally says shocking things that tend to awaken folks from their lethargy. She definitely disturbs my sleep, which is a good thing.
With love :candle:
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 5:01 pm form in paticca samuppada arises in the mind due to craving, many think form in DO is a physical object.
If it was a physical body (form of a woman, of a man) why would Buddha ask Radha to destroy form?, as little kids on the shore would create sandcastles and destroy them, when they lose interest. (Radha Samyutta).
SN23.2 wrote:"Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is caught up[1] there, tied up[2] there, one is said to be 'a being.'[3]"
So it's ok to be there to the extent you don't get caught-up there? I don't see it said to not make sandcastles. I see it said desire, delight, craving, passion for them is where one can be caught-up. And when caught up, smash them as to be unfit to play with so to be free of the caught. I might be misunderstanding it.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Pulsar »

Dhammapardon wrote
So it's ok to be there to the extent you don't get caught-up there? I don't see it said to not make sandcastles. I see it said desire, delight, craving, passion for them is where one can be caught-up. And when caught up, smash them as to be unfit to play with so to be free of the caught. I might be misunderstanding it.
An excerpt from SN 23.2 "Being"
"Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles:[4] as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them, feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion, desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or feet and make them unfit for play.
  • "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form.
How do you read the sutta in the context of DO? I have no doubt Buddha is instructing V. Radha to destroy all the five aggregates.
Don't you see it like that? Elsewhere in the Samyutta Nikaya, Buddha identifies Rupa as a worldly phenomenon.
What happens when one is caught up desire for a woman/man? Does one create the woman or man man physically in front of him? Mind has no such powers, however consciousness is like a magic trick, (Phena sutta). Consciousness can retrieve mental images of a man or woman (seen in the past) who is nowhere near the person physically.
Based on that image created due to craving identification (naming) occurs. Nama rupa working together creates a new consciousness, via feeling, intention etc. Sutta in other words is expounding the harm or suffering created by the origination of the five aggregates.
Is not Buddha asking Radha to destroy form?.
Buddha says
"So too Radha scatter form and demolish it"
in VBB's translation.
Regards :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Wed Nov 30, 2022 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Dhammapardon »

Pulsar wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 6:30 pm How do you read the sutta in the context of DO?
My understanding of DO is still weak, and I don't have enough time to reflect fully at the moment but I understand it as abandoning the raft upon reaching the far shore. Or maybe in this case, disassemble it so not to return.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Noble Sangha »

Not the right timing for me to fully participate in this thread, but I just seen some comments worthy of praise and would like to point some of them out as I feel it could benefit others understanding of anicca. If one wants to get to a deeper or correct understanding of anicca, based on my understanding and opinion, some of the comments quoted below are worthy to take into consideration for one’s understanding of Anicca.

- "It's just that impermanence of any kind in relation to an object that we don't care about is not a problem in itself. Impermanence becomes a problem only when it happens not according to our desire and in relation to what is dear to us, what we consider ourselves or ours "

- "After all, it is not change as such that is a source for unhappiness (in which case there would be no escape from sorrow), but change from the way I want things to be"

- "Yet despite our efforts we cannot change the fact that things change and become otherwise. What can be altered is our attachment to the things of the world whether or not they are in a state of flux."

- "No, change is involved with suffering not because of change per se but because things do not remain the way we wish them to remain even when the way we wish them to be is “to be changing.”"

The majority of Theravada Buddhist practitioners today have learned and are often taught anicca as impermanence, now I see "inconsistent, unreliable" and other words similar that I might have not mentioned here. From my understanding and opinion, pretty much every Theravada Buddhist practitioners has only been taught or learned a very minor understanding of anicca. In my opinion and view, translating the word Anicca as impermanence has brought a great disservice to Buddhist community and doesn't even give the right "sanna" of what anicca is or "Anicca sanna". In the Girimānandasutta, Lord Buddha defined what "Anicca sanna" is:
"Katamā cānanda, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchāsaññā? Idhānanda, bhikkhu sabbasaṅkhāresu aṭṭīyati harāyati jigucchati. Ayaṁ vuccatānanda, sabbasaṅkhāresu anicchāsaññā."

I honestly don't know how anicca can be translated as impermanence and other words similar if one understood what's being taught as “anicca sanna” in the Girimānandasutta.

I would like to make it clear that "impermanence, inconstant, unreliable, change" DOES play a part / role in anicca, but not the emphasis that's being placed on the meaning of Anicca that's widely known and taught today. Translating or teaching others anicca as impermanence, inconsistent, etc . . . is like using a tail of an elephant to describe what a whole elephant is! I can’t / don't deny that impermanence, inconsistency doesn’t play a role in anicca, just like I can’t / don't deny a tail of an elephant doesn’t belong to an elephant. But using a tail of an elephant or using words like impermanence, inconsistent, etc to translate or say that’s what an elephant or anicca is, doesn’t give a complete picture or understanding. As well, there is a major problem with translating anicca as impermanence which I will bring up indirectly at the end of this post.

Even though some comments worthy of praise were made, but at the same time from my understanding and opinion, I see some "possible" gaps of misunderstandings / misinterpretations / misdirected. By mentioning some of these comments, my hope / intention is for the learner / practitioner to dig deeper so that it might help them to achieve / attain a deeper understanding of the dhamma.

- “Impermanence becomes a problem only when it happens not according to our desire and in relation to what is dear to us, what we consider ourselves or ours - and only in this case is impermanence the very aniccha that is dukkha”

First half of what is mentioned is good, but the mentioning of “only in this case is impermanence the very anicca that is dukkha” I believe there’s some gaps of misunderstanding and ones' understanding could use further refinement.

- “The problem of dukkha is not a problem in general”

I would ask anyone “What is the first noble truth about according to your understanding?” that mentions or believes what I just quoted above.

Mjaviem, "But how is it that form is dependently originated?"

Some (there are others) key words and Buddha dhamma teachings to answer your question are: Sankata, Agganna Sutta, Udayavaya Nana, 4 Noble truths. From Akusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada, think of . . . avija pacca sankhara . . . (San)phassa, vedana, tanha, upadana bhava, jati . . .

Pulsar, "I have no doubt Buddha is instructing V. Radha to destroy all the five aggregates."

“Destroy the five aggregates” might not be the most accurate representation of what’s being said. If one believes the 5 aggregates can be destroyed, this will need further clarification. Let me help you rearrange some words in this line "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for form."

"In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish craving for form and make it unfit for play"

Another way of saying, “Destroy, eradicate, uproot, etc . . . the craving / clinging / attachment / asava's, etc . . . to the five aggregates".
Think of the ending line for the first noble truth. “Samkhittena pancupadanakkhandha dukkha”

I hope this helps . . .

I’m going to end this post by asking everyone a question. Does impermanence / inconsistency / change “ALWAYS” lead to suffering? Key word is “ALWAYS”.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Noble Sangha wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:06 pm
I’m going to end this post by asking everyone a question. Does impermanence / inconsistency / change “ALWAYS” lead to suffering? Key word is “ALWAYS”.
Yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Spiny Norman »

Noble Sangha wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:06 pm I’m going to end this post by asking everyone a question. Does impermanence / inconsistency / change “ALWAYS” lead to suffering? Key word is “ALWAYS”.
No. Suffering only arises when we cling to that which is impermanent. When we crave lasting satisfaction or security in transient things.
Buddha save me from new-agers!
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by cappuccino »

Noble Sangha wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 8:06 pm
Seeing inconstancy is the Buddhist practice for Nirvana


If you seek Nirvana
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Post by sunnat »

Clinging to compositions creates illusory momentary permanence and a gross understanding of anicca as change from pain to not pain and back again.
The experience of anicca as flux or continuous change results from letting go and is not experienced as pain. Rather pain dissolves in a flow. Continuous awareness of this subtle continual change is ‘walking the path’.
Another way to describe ‘walking the path’ is the sitting by a river watching it flow by without reaching out to grab, recoil from or ignore things that flow by. The river is continually changing. Reaching out, clinging, results in pain
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Post by Ceisiwr »

sunnat wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:15 pm Clinging to compositions creates illusory momentary permanence and a gross understanding of anicca as change from pain to not pain and back again.
The experience of anicca as flux or continuous change results from letting go and is not experienced as pain. Rather pain dissolves in a flow. Continuous awareness of this subtle continual change is ‘walking the path’.
Another way to describe ‘walking the path’ is the sitting by a river watching it flow by without reaching out to grab, recoil from or ignore things that flow by. The river is continually changing. Reaching out, clinging, results in pain
Why did the Buddha experience pain?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Post by sunnat »

Good point. This is perhaps an example of the difficulty of translating dukkha. Buddha in old age explains that in order to not be uncomfortable he has to be in the right mind state. That which is ‘permanent’ pain to ordinary people not walking the path is not dukkha for a liberated being. Suffering, misery, pain, dukkha ?
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Post by Ceisiwr »

sunnat wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 9:35 pm Good point. This is perhaps an example of the difficulty of translating dukkha. Buddha in old age explains that in order to not be uncomfortable he has to be in the right mind state. That which is ‘permanent’ pain to ordinary people not walking the path is not dukkha for a liberated being. Suffering, misery, pain, dukkha ?
Anything dependently originated is dukkha. In order to arouse dissatisfaction with the entire world, you have to see how it is all just a mass of dukkha. Nothing but dukkha arises, nothing but dukkha passes away. The Buddha experienced illness and pain, and that illness and pain was dependently originated.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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