Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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nirodh27
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by nirodh27 »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:05 pm
nirodh27 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:03 pm Hope that you've found it interesting! It is a work-in-progress btw
Thanks, that's interesting. I"m still not clear why I need any more of a definition than "aggregates" and "aggregates accompanied by clinging" or "aggregates that may be clung to" to make sense out of the suttas. The idea of some sort of "pure aggregate" seems to be an unnecessary elaboration. To take the jhana case, one could say that in jhana one doesn't cling to the aggregates.

Perhaps it's just a terminology issue.

Thanks again for the detailed reply!

:heart:
Mike
Hi,

I think that we should not concentrate too much on the "pure" aggregates and they are not needed else the Buddha would have teached them :tongue: , I think that it can be useful in the sense that can describe a sort of experience that is purified by desire and lust. While in normal experience there are aggregates (any kind of form/feeling/tec whatever, even what you simply ignore) and clinging-aggregates (forms/etc that you cling to, let me pass this without much nuance), in jhana due to the fact that there's no desire and lust, experience of the aggregates will "feel" as pure since the gross clinging of lust is not there. It is a way to describe an experience, that I find helpful and on-point especially because it comes from Buddhadasa, that is one that likes to speak from experience.
Ontheway
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ontheway »

Impermanent
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
auto
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by auto »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 5:29 pm The Buddha said that the aggregates (without mentioning clinging) are suffering. He also said all form etc, whatever form it is, is suffering. That means any form, subject to clinging or not, is dukkha. The aggregates are dependently originated. They arise. Everything which arises is dukkha.
desire and greed for aggregates is corruption(upakkileso) of the mind
https://suttacentral.net/sn27.10/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Mendicants, desire and greed for form, feeling, perception, choices, or consciousness is a corruption of the mind.
“Yo, bhikkhave, rūpasmiṁ chandarāgo, cittasseso upakkileso …pe… yo viññāṇasmiṁ chandarāgo, cittasseso upakkileso.
desire and greed for the grasping aggregates is the grasping(upādāna) there
https://suttacentral.net/mn44/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: The desire and greed for the five grasping aggregates is the grasping there.”
Yo kho, āvuso visākha, pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu chandarāgo taṁ tattha upādānan”ti.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 9:56 pm C wrote
The six sense bases originate with ignorance as a condition
Are you implying Buddha still had ignorance after the awakening? How do you understand the six sense bases in Salayatana?
Is there any sutta that says Buddha was still ignorant after the Awakening? Not in the Buddhist canon that I read. An ignorant Sammasambuddha sounds like an oxymoron to me.
With love :candle:
I'm arguing that the 6 sense bases arise based on ignorance and, as your quote shows, the Arahants (whilst alive) still experience them. The last dying embers of dukkha. The remaining disturbance to the complete peace. The wages of past action.
You appear to think like Abhidhammikas do. How do the Abhidhamma followers get rid of suffering? Do they have to destroy physical bodies?
I first should say that I misread your initial post. Nāmarūpa is made up of two bodies. That of the nāmakāya and the rūpakāya. As for how Ābhidhammikas conceptualise awakening, it depends on your flavour of Abhidhamma/Abhidharma. I can only speak of the two schools that I am familiar with. For the Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika awakening occurs due to seeing the universal natures of the dravyasat sabhāva-dhammas, which occurs via insight into dependent origination. This is framed in a "decoupling" from the dravyasat sabhāva-dhammas since they, being eternal substances, always are in all times. For Theravāda awakening occurs via insight into the universal natures of the phenomenal sabhāva-dhammas, which occurs via insight into dependent origination. One is a thoroughgoing realist conception of the Dhamma and awakening. The other, a mix of realism and phenomenalism. Both are strongly dualist. This is an oversimplification, of course. Both vādas recognise that there are two different forms, for want of a better word, of nibbāna. One where the āsava are destroyed, but the mind & body (the result of past action) remains, and one at the end of life. This is where all conditioned dhammas cease forever never to arise again since the root has been cut. For both schools nibbāna is some kind of real existing thing, but it is one which is beyond all words. Since all conditioned dhammas have ceased, but nibbāna remains, total freedom and escape from saṃsāra is achieved.
Dependent Originated can be abolished by getting rid of rupa. If rupa in mind does not appear due to absence of craving, there is nothing to be identified with (No Nama). Problem is solved by getting rid of craving.
Well the root problem is ignorance. Ābhidhammikas would agree that the absence of nāmarūpa is liberation, but what that actually means is, as I've outlined above, very different to what you understand by it. I would argue, as the Ābhidhammikas and, indeed, the suttas would, that nāma itself is not identification. It is clinging which leads to identification, based on the suttas, not nāma itself.
But if rupa in Nama-rupa is physical, getting rid of craving will have no impact on getting rid of physical bodies surrounding us. Do you see my point?
I do understand why you are making this argument, but I depart because I think it is mistaken. It is mistaken because based on what the suttas outline, you are not fully taking into account the scope of dependent origination. What I mean by that is that dependent origination isn't a process that occurs and ceases in mind moments, or something similar. It can be useful to think of it in that way, but it's not the original formulation of it. Dependent origination is occurring right now, right here, but it has also occurred in the past for you and i. In the past, as right now, you and I are ignorant. Because of that ignorance there are conditions have arisen right now. If we were to awaken in this moment, right now, dependent origination would cease. No ignorance would be here in the mind, and with that cessation all of the other links can't arise again. That moment of awakening however doesn't erase the past. We were still ignorant before awakening and, because of that ignorance, there will be dukkha in our life because when there is ignorance dukkha will arise. This is the way of things, the universal law. The Buddha taught us, in his infinite wisdom, that all that which is impermanent is dukkha. In terms of our individual existences, he framed it that the root cause of this impermanence is ignorance itself. Because of our past ignorance this body and mind, which you and I are experiencing, has arisen. Because it is dependently arisen, it is dukkha itself. It can't be anything else, because it is dependent. It is tottering, teetering, changing and becoming other. Because of that past ignorance, because of this dependently arisen body and mind, there must be ageing, sickness, pain and death. This means, upon awakening, we all must die our final death to be finally free from all death and suffering, the deathless.
In order to solve the problem, one must comprehend Buddha's profound teaching, as he taught it.
Perhaps an ordinary mind is incapable of doing so? is not capable of that profound understanding?
Buddha was reluctant to teach, at the beginning, Sutta Pitaka writes.
He probably thought everyone will think like you do, that rupa in Nama-rupa is both physical and mental.
Yes, an ordinary mind can't comprehend the Buddha's profound teaching. This is why, increasingly, I think we should focus less on what the ultimate is and more on the path on how to get there. The ultimate is beyond words. Concepts, perceptions, ideas, arguments all of them will fail to grasp it. The path however we can put into concepts, perceptions, ideas and arguments. The path is that of the NEFP, that of mastery of the mind, that of seeing all of existence as being dukkha. Of seeing all that which is impermanent and dependently arisen as being dukkha. That the aggregates, in any form, anywhere, as being dukkha and that of rūpa in nāmarūpa as being one's physical form.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Pulsar
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Pulsar »

C wrote
rūpa in nāmarūpa as being one's physical form
Quite so as the vedas intended.
However rupa in Nama rupa of Paticca samuppada taught by Buddha is a mental creation. It is based on physical rupa, but Rupa active in DO is how it is reflected by each relevant consciousness.
Like the reflection of a face in a pond... if the water in the pond is muddy the reflected rupa is distorted, based on the degree of dirt in the pond. If the consciousness is defiled?
A defiled eye consciousness, will it reflect a clear image of a face?
The consciousness arising is influenced by the mind created nimittas (features) arising from that reflected image.
Underlying tendencies plays a large role here.
One must take the distortion created by each kind of consciousness, eye, ear, nose consciounesss etc, influenced by underlying tendencies.
But it is pointless my going on....about this, with you. Your mind is made up. Did not Retro try to convince you a while back, and you continued to object to all the points he raised? Where he failed how can I succeed?
With love :candle:
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cappuccino
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:40 am This means, upon awakening, we all must die our final death to be finally free from all death and suffering, the deathless.
How can deathless be death
Pulsar
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Pulsar »

Cappucino wrote
how can deathless be death?
Brilliant! May you live at Dhamma Wheel forever, deathless! I wish all could communicate like you,
with so few words.
With love, until death do us part. :candle:
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by cappuccino »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 11:42 pm I wish all could communicate like you, with so few words.
Lao Tzu wrote:Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt.
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Pulsar »

From Adze handle
“Bhikkhus, I say that the destruction of the taints
is for one who knows and sees,
not for one who does not know and does not see. 
  • ‘Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away; such is feeling, such is perception, such are volitional formations, such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away’
it is for one who knows thus, for one who sees thus, that the destruction of the taints comes about"
My dearest Cappucino: In this brief passage we are asked to destroy the five aggregates, right?
Do you agree?
Yet behold the many on the forum that insist that Arahant holds on to the Aggregates
, until he dies,
you my dear Cappucino, just proved to the forum "the deathless Arahant cannot die"
Elsewhere it is said that if one held onto the aggregates, these would be mirroring a self.
I can't make it any shorter.
Can you convince the forum using one of your pithy comments, the intention of the Adze handle?
Is that too much to ask My Lord Cappuccino!
With love and "Till death do us part" :candle:

PS Come to think of it, nothing can part us, if we were to be deathless.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 9:56 pm Quite so as the vedas intended.
Well the Buddha would have used the term in a way that the Brahmins were somewhat familiar with. The point of the 12 link formular is to show how there isn't an independently exiting (and so eternal) viññāṇa behind sense experience. Rather viññāṇa arises due to intentions, and with these intentions viññāṇa becomes involved with name & form. In other formulations the Buddha argues that viññāṇa and name & form are always mixed up together. This is to argue against the idea of an eternal awareness, namely that of Ātman & Brahman. Turning dependent origination into some kind of idealism or phenomenalism or whatever is missing the point.
However rupa in Nama rupa of Paticca samuppada taught by Buddha is a mental creation. It is based on physical rupa, but Rupa active in DO is how it is reflected by each relevant consciousness.
This sounds like sañña rather than rūpa. I agree that rūpa can also occur in a mental context, sure, but in terms of nāmarūpa in the 12-link scheme it refers to your body. It can be argued that in other contexts it refers to sense objects, but even there rūpa is talked of as an external physical form. Do you have any sutta references to support your view that rūpa in nāmarūpa is purely a mental representation?
Like the reflection of a face in a pond... if the water in the pond is muddy the reflected rupa is distorted, based on the degree of dirt in the pond. If the consciousness is defiled?
A defiled eye consciousness, will it reflect a clear image of a face?
The consciousness arising is influenced by the mind created nimittas (features) arising from that reflected image.
Underlying tendencies plays a large role here.
One must take the distortion created by each kind of consciousness, eye, ear, nose consciounesss etc, influenced by underlying tendencies.
I would agree that the mind creates signs which is applies to experience, which we then recognise when we encounter the same experience again. That is more the function of sañña though than viññāṇa. The perversion of sañña is the application of the signs of "permanent, sukha and self" to sense experience.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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