Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

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mjaviem
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by mjaviem »

nirodh27 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:16 pm ... what is the real understanding of impermanence towards the body that a person that got release in the terms of 12.61 lacks?. Impermanence of mind is hard to see, without doubt, but as far as the body is concerned? Here it seems that it is sufficient to get release to look at the impermanence of body and get disgusted about his nature, one doesn't have to understand 12-link DO for the body.
...
They don't see anicca. They simply get disenchanted with the body because here impermanence is apparent. They don't understand they just believe in it or have arrived to this conclusion.
nirodh27 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 3:16 pm ...

You said:
I understand anicca as "can't last" and "can't be trusted".
This is surely something that, for the body, even a worlding can understand or see, no? It might desire another body or an immortal body (so he can get attached to an idea, a hope) or a replacement, but as far as his body that is now old, what is the real understanding he lacks?
...
This is the point, this people disenchanted with their bodies without insight into DO can get easily enchanted by some futuristic amazing body or sequence of bodies they would acquire. Giving up the body is good, I'm only saying this is not fully understanding the body. Finally understanding anicca means Nibbana, the "impermanent All" goes away from that moment.

Of course with metta here too!
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by nirodh27 »

nirodh27 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:07 pm
mikenz66 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 5:35 am
pegembara wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:45 am
Seems that the indonesian translation is perfect. I've found one made by a professional. I'm glad that his analysis is the same as mine in pages 30-33 adding even more intresting details and a new sutta that strenghten the argument:

https://ahandfulofleaves.files.wordpres ... n-keat.pdf
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Spiny Norman wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:49 am
Which aspects of dukkha do you think have actually ceased for the Arahant?
This is from MN 141
“And, Venerables, what is the noble truth of suffering? Birth is suffering, aging is suffering, dieing is suffering; sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish are suffering; not getting what one wants is suffering; briefly, the five aggregates when affected by clinging are suffering.

“And, Venerables, what is birth? The birth, appearance, descent, or production of those beings amidst a group of beings; the manifestation of the aggregates; the acquisition of the sense-bases – Venerables, this is called ‘birth.’

“And, Venerables, what is aging? The aging, decrepitude, broken teeth, gray hair, and wrinkled skin of those beings amidst a group of beings; the dwindling of vitality; the weakening of one‘s faculties – Venerables, this is called ‘aging.’

“And, Venerables, what is dieing? The falling, shifting away, dissolution, disappearance, mortality, and dieing of those beings from a group of beings; the completion of the lifetime; the dissolution of the aggregates; the laying-down of the body; the severance of the life-faculty – Venerables, this is called ‘dieing.’


“And, Venerables, what is sorrow? Venerables, the sorrow, sadness, sorrowfulness, melancholy, or depression of one who has had some kind of misfortune or who has encountered some kind of unpleasant experience – Venerables, this is called ‘sorrow.’

“And, Venerables, what is lamentation? Venerables, the grief, lamentation, grieving, lamenting, state of grief, or state of lamentation of one who has had some kind of misfortune or who has encountered some kind of unpleasant experience – Venerables, this is called ‘lamentation.’

“And, Venerables, what is pain? Venerables, whatever is felt as physical pain, physically unpleasant, pain and unpleasantness that arises from physical contact – Venerables, this is called ‘pain.’

“And, Venerables, what is dejection? Venerables, whatever is felt as mental pain, mentally unpleasant, pain and unpleasantness that arises from mental contact – Venerables, this is called ‘dejection.’

“And, Venerables, what is anguish? The misery, anguish, state of misery, or state of anguish of one who has had some kind of misfortune or who has encountered some kind of unpleasant experience – Venerables, this is called ‘anguish.’

“And what, Venerables, is ‘not getting what one wants is dissatisfaction’? Venerables, this kind of wish arises in a being who is subject to birth: ‘Oh, may we not be subject to birth; may birth not come to us.’ But that wish is not attainable. This is called ‘not getting what one wants is dissatisfaction.’ Venerables, this kind of wish arises in a being who is subject to aging… illness… dieing… sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish: ‘Oh, may we not be subject to sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish; may sorrow, lamentation, pain, dejection, and anguish not come to us.’ But that wish is not attainable. This is also called ‘not getting what one wants is dissatisfaction.’
Upon awakening this immeditately ceases, but this continues until death. In the past there was ignorance, and so now there is a body which ages and experiences pain, both of which the Buddha said are dukkha. Birth is a little tricky, but I read it as the suffering of being born itself and because with it you are subject to the rest.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

nirodh27 wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:07 pm
And SA55 translated from indonesian (Which is usually very correct since it is translated from a professional translation of modern indonesian)

At that time the Gracious One said to the monks: "I will now teach you the aggregates and the clinging aggregates. What is the aggregates? Whatever bodily form, whether past, future or present, internal or external, gross or subtle, beautiful or repulsive, far or near, all these together are called the bodily form aggregate. "Likewise, whatever feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is also like this. All of them together are called the feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness aggregate. This is called the aggregates of life.

"What is the clinging aggregates? It is if bodily form is together with the influxes and there is clinging, if in regard to that bodily form-whether it is past, future, or present- one gives rise to craving, hatred, delusion, and also various other types of additional suffering that become objects of the mind. Feeling ... perception ... formations ... consciousness is also like this. This is called the clinging aggregates.
This says that when there is craving etc then there is additional suffering. Elsewhere the Buddha says that the aggregates are suffering. They are a disease, a boil, a dart, an affliction. The aggregates are dependently originated, which means they are suffering.
Based on my research and on what was collected here, passages about Anicca (that are not simply the linkage of impermanence = Dukkha that are everywhere) are not very frequent in the suttas, but what can be gathered is that momentariness is not there except on very few (one?) passage and that btw pairs well with the analysis of Analayo that says that momentariness is a later idea (if helpful of not, it is another matter).

Anicca is something that arises, persist for an indefinite amount with an indefinite amount of change and then ends. For the 4-mind aggregates, the time which they persists is very brief, while the body is seen to arise, persist, degrate and end in a lifetime. For what is worth to us (the five aggregates) the one that persists the most is the body and that is certainly interesting in various ways, to counter the magic-trick of consciousness as an enduring-thing for example.
In 22.38 we see a more momentary view of things
‘Whatever form has passed, ceased, and perished, its arising, vanishing, and change while persisting were evident. Whatever feeling … perception … choices … consciousness has passed, ceased, and perished, its arising, vanishing, and change while persisting were evident. These the things for which arising, vanishing, and change while persisting were evident.

Whatever form is not yet born, and has not yet appeared, its arising, vanishing, and change while persisting will be evident. Whatever feeling … perception … choices … consciousness is not yet born, and has not yet appeared, its arising, vanishing, and change while persisting will be evident. These are the things for which arising, vanishing, and change while persisting will be evident.

Whatever form has been born, and has appeared, its arising, vanishing, and change while persisting is evident. Whatever feeling … perception … choices … consciousness has been born, and has appeared, its arising, vanishing, and change while persisting are evident. These are the things for which arising is evident, vanishing is evident, and change while persisting is evident.’ That’s how I’d answer such a question.”
One sees in the moment the arising, ceasing and change whilst persisting of form. In Sn 22.97 we are told that visible form etc, conciousness, contact and so on are all changing and becoming other. This too suggests a momentary view of things
Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The eye is impermanent, perishing, and changing. Sights are impermanent, perishing, and changing. So this duality is tottering and toppling; it’s impermanent, perishing, and changing. Eye consciousness is impermanent, perishing, and changing. And the causes and conditions that give rise to eye consciousness are also impermanent, perishing, and changing. But since eye consciousness has arisen dependent on conditions that are impermanent, how could it be permanent?
It's parallel frames it in terms of

“Monks, these have the nature of birth, ageing, death, ceasing, and rebirth. Monks, all compounded things are as an illusion, a flame, ceasing in an instant; being not real they come (arise) and go (cease).

We also see in SN 22.97 a support for momentariness
Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and said to that bhikkhu: “Bhikkhu, there is not even this much form that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself. If there was this much form that was permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, this living of the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering could not be discerned. But because there is not even this much form that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, this living of the holy life for the complete destruction of suffering is discerned.
There is not even a small amount of form which stable. The picture we get from these suttas is that form, as well as mind, constantly arises and ceases. Notice that it also escalates in view. One starts from the view of permanency in experience, which then becomes a stable and enduring thing. This then proliferates further into an eternal thing free of change that always is. The error starts with permanence. One then has to see that things are not permanent. They are subject to change. How pots are subject to change, but then one goes further than this so that one does not even perceive things which endure and then change.
Anicca is something that arises, persist for an indefinite amount with an indefinite amount of change and then ends. For the 4-mind aggregates, the time which they persists is very brief, while the body is seen to arise, persist, degrate and end in a lifetime. For what is worth to us (the five aggregates) the one that persists the most is the body and that is certainly interesting in various ways, to counter the magic-trick of consciousness as an enduring-thing for example.

Just as there are degrees of Dukkha (Dukkha can be minor or major) so it so for anicca that is diverse in duration and stability, because there are things that persist more (for what interest to us, persist more as pleasant), that are more stable and reliable and others that are way less stable. Jhanas being the more stable and reliable of all that we can imagine bar Nibbana.
When Buddhists were debating Brahmins, such as those who followed Nyāya, it was the Brahmins who argued that there were things which persist and change over time. They did so, because if taken quite literally it means there are enduring substances in the world. Do you think these later Brahmins had a better understanding of Dhamma than the Buddha's own followers did? If things arise dependently, how can they endure?
Analayo is very wise in his analysis and I suggest this reading to everyone:
This isn't really anything new. You find the same presentation in the Visuddhimagga.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Pulsar »

Spiny Norman asked
Which aspects of dukkha do you think have actually ceased for the Arahant?
All aspects of Dukkha that are dependently originated have ceased for the Arahant, yet some folks insist that Arahant suffers due to Paticca Samuppada.
  • Would that not make a mockery of Buddha Dhamma?
not the dhamma of later schools which partly and neatly was tucked into some parts of the Pali canon? Maha Satipatthana sutta, DN 22 is not the only incongruent sutta.
Another excerpt from the Pali canon, MN 140, that stands in stark contrast to what Theravada C. claims.
Construing is a disease, construing is a cancer, construing is an arrow.
By going beyond all construing, he is said to be a sage at peace.
Hence Arahant is called the Sage at Peace.
"Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born,
does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing.
He has nothing whereby he would be born.
Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.'
  • Clearly this excerpt says there is no aging for the Arahant.
Who are we to believe? Ceisiwr who insists that Buddha is not done with generating suffering due to Dependent Origination? Does that not make a mockery of his enlightenment?
What happened under the Bodhi tree on that Full Moon day of May, way back when?
Did Buddha not end all his suffering due to Paticca Samuppada?
Rewriting the Awakening Of Buddha, are we at Dhamma Wheel? Or as Ceisiwr once said Anything goes Wheel?
With love :candle:
Last edited by Pulsar on Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:54 pm ...
"Furthermore, a sage at peace is not born,
does not age, does not die, is unagitated, and is free from longing.
We have the Buddha saying his bears his last body, that he has aged and experienced illness and pain. How to understand this is in the following line
He has nothing whereby he would be born.
The āsavā have gone out. With there cessation, there is no basis for birth and suffering. In the past however the āsavā were active, and because of that the Buddha has a body which he carried around. With a body comes various diseases and pain.
Not being born, will he age? Not aging, will he die? Not dying, will he be agitated? Not being agitated, for what will he long? It was in reference to this that it was said, 'He has been stilled where the currents of construing do not flow. And when the currents of construing do not flow, he is said to be a sage at peace.'
If something was never born, then it will never age and die.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:58 pm How to understand this is in the following line
He has nothing whereby he would be born.
If something was never born, then it will never age and die.
He is still not born nor dying
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:01 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:58 pm How to understand this is in the following line
He has nothing whereby he would be born.
If something was never born, then it will never age and die.
He is still not born nor dying
From an ultimate point of view there never was a Buddha who did anything, but the Buddha was fine saying that he was old and got ill. Trying to jump to the ultimate without making use of the raft isn't wise. You'll just drown. See how many people here take a view of the ultimate and then use that to dismantle the raft mid-stream. That pain is not dukkha, that mastery of the mind is a folly, that birth doesn't mean being literally born and so on. The Buddha wanted us to see the world in terms of pain being dukkha, in terms of a gradual path, in terms of being literally born if we cling and that it is merely birth into more suffering. That is the raft he wanted us to use.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:13 pm, edited 4 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:04 pm From an ultimate point of view there never was a Buddha who did anything, but
There is no ultimate point of view
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:05 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:04 pm From an ultimate point of view there never was a Buddha who did anything, but
There is no ultimate point of view
Sure, because ultimately we let go even of the view of dependent origination... at the end of the journey, not at the beginning or midway.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:08 pm Sure, because ultimately we let go even of the view of dependent origination...
You can’t let go of dependent arising
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:10 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:08 pm Sure, because ultimately we let go even of the view of dependent origination...
You can’t let go of dependent arising
Dependent origination is formed, and so eventually that too must be let go of. Small moves though, small moves.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:11 pm Dependent origination is formed, and so eventually that too must be let go of.
Merely negating everything won’t help


You need to understand the teaching
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:14 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:11 pm Dependent origination is formed, and so eventually that too must be let go of.
Merely negating everything won’t help


You need to understand the teaching
You haven't understood a word I said.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Top anicca quotes and a question: it is impermanent or inconstant?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 8:18 pm You haven't understood a word I said.
I prefer to understand what Buddha says
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