Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

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Ceisiwr
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Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

SN 22.76 is an interesting one as it states that the 5 aggregates are suffering. The Buddha also states in it that the awakened, Buddhas and Arahants, "bear their final body" which ties dependent origination to rebirth.
At Savatthi. “Bhikkhus, form is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’ “Feeling is impermanent…. Perception is impermanent…. Volitional formations are impermanent…. Consciousness is impermanent. What is impermanent is suffering. What is suffering is nonself. What is nonself should be seen as it really is with correct wisdom thus: ‘This is not mine, this I am not, this is not my self.’

“Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion his mind is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: ‘It’s liberated.’ He understands: ‘Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.’

“To whatever extent, bhikkhus, there are abodes of beings, even up to the pinnacle of existence, these are the foremost in the world, these are the best, that is, the arahants.”

This is what the Blessed One said. Having said this, the Fortunate One, the Teacher, further said this:

“Happy indeed are the arahants!
No craving can be found in them.
Cut off is the conceit ‘I am,’
Burst asunder is delusion’s net.

Limpid are their minds;
They are unsullied in the world—
The holy ones, without taints.

“Having fully understood the five aggregates,
Ranging in the seven good qualities,
Those praiseworthy superior men
Are the Buddha’s bosom sons.

“Endowed with the seven gems,
Trained in the threefold training,
Those great heroes wander about
With fear and trembling abandoned.

“Endowed with the ten factors,
Those great nagas, concentrated,
Are the best beings in the world:
No craving can be found in them.

“The adepts’ knowledge has arisen in them:
‘This body is the last I bear.’
In regard to the core of the holy life
They no longer depend on others.

They are released from renewed existence.
Having reached the stage of the tamed,
They are the victors in the world.

“Above, across, and below,
Delight is no more found in them.
They boldly sound their lion’s roar:
‘The enlightened are supreme in the world.’”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.76/en/bod ... ight=false
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as a boil, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.123/en/su ... ript=latin

We also see in SN 12.123 that the 5 aggregates are suffering, a disease, a boil, a dart, misery, an affliction even for Buddhas and Arahants.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
nmjojola
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by nmjojola »

Well, for some, there is nothing in the texts which obligates one to understand the dhamma as nothing more than making the distinction, and developing full comprehension of said distinction, between pancupadanakhanda and pancakhanda.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:13 pm Well, for some, there is nothing in the texts which obligates one to understand the dhamma as nothing more than making the distinction, and developing full comprehension of said distinction, between pancupadanakhanda and pancakhanda.
Yet the Buddha and Arahants are said to still experience the 5 clinging aggregates.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:37 pm SN 22.76 is an interesting one as it states that the 5 aggregates are suffering.
Are stressful
nmjojola
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:17 pm
nmjojola wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:13 pm Well, for some, there is nothing in the texts which obligates one to understand the dhamma as nothing more than making the distinction, and developing full comprehension of said distinction, between pancupadanakhanda and pancakhanda.
Yet the Buddha and Arahants are said to still experience the 5 clinging aggregates.
Says you, sure.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

nmjojola wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:17 pm
nmjojola wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:13 pm Well, for some, there is nothing in the texts which obligates one to understand the dhamma as nothing more than making the distinction, and developing full comprehension of said distinction, between pancupadanakhanda and pancakhanda.
Yet the Buddha and Arahants are said to still experience the 5 clinging aggregates.
Says you, sure.
It’s here
But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a perfected one properly attend to?”

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should also properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as a boil, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/su ... ript=latin

If someone wants to make a significant distinction between the five clinging aggregates and the five aggregates then they have to ask themselves, are the aggregates dependently originated or not? If they are dependently originated then they are dukkha.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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cappuccino
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:40 pm are the aggregates dependently originated or not? If they are dependently originated then they are dukkha.
You have this body because you want to enjoy life


Life is difficult or stressful
nmjojola
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by nmjojola »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:40 pm
nmjojola wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:36 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:17 pm

Yet the Buddha and Arahants are said to still experience the 5 clinging aggregates.
Says you, sure.
It’s here
But Reverend Sāriputta, what things should a perfected one properly attend to?”

“Reverend Koṭṭhita, a perfected one should also properly attend to the five grasping aggregates as impermanent, as suffering, as diseased, as a boil, as a dart, as misery, as an affliction, as alien, as falling apart, as empty, as not-self. A perfected one has nothing more to do, and nothing that needs improvement. Still, these things, when developed and cultivated, lead to blissful meditation in the present life, and also to mindfulness and situational awareness.”
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.122/en/su ... ript=latin

If someone wants to make a significant distinction between the five clinging aggregates and the five aggregates then they have to ask themselves, are the aggregates dependently originated or not? If they are dependently originated then they are dukkha.
What’s there is that it’s blissful for a liberated one to reflect on what one has been liberated from. If someone wants to make a significant distinction between the five clinging aggregates, and the five aggregates, then they first have to appreciate that until they do make the distinction, they don’t even understand what dependent origination, nor dukkha, is, in the first place.
form
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by form »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:17 pm
nmjojola wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:13 pm Well, for some, there is nothing in the texts which obligates one to understand the dhamma as nothing more than making the distinction, and developing full comprehension of said distinction, between pancupadanakhanda and pancakhanda.
Yet the Buddha and Arahants are said to still experience the 5 clinging aggregates.
Only old kamma. They do not create new kamma.
santa100
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by santa100 »

nmjojola wrote:What’s there is that it’s blissful for a liberated one to reflect on what one has been liberated from.
form wrote:Only old kamma. They do not create new kamma.
+1. Just wanna add an analogy, the novice student looks at his master pianist (or master of martial art) still playing his piano or executing his Kata everyday might mistakenly think that even his masters still "need" to train to perfect their art. But the truth is those masters no longer do it to improve/perfect anything, they do it simply because it has become second nature, their way of life.

~~ He (the arahant) knew: "Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for the sake of this world." ~~
pegembara
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by pegembara »

No upadana, no burning. Coolness.
Leave the five aggregates alone.
"Suppose a person were to gather or burn or do as he likes with the grass, twigs, branches, & leaves here in Jeta's Grove. Would the thought occur to you, 'It's us that this person is gathering, burning, or doing with as he likes'?"

"No, lord. Why is that? Because those things are not our self nor do they pertain to our self."

"In the same way, monks, the eye is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... The ear... The nose... The tongue... The body... The intellect is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit... Whatever arises in dependence on intellect-contact, experienced either as pleasure, as pain, or as neither-pleasure-nor-pain, that too is not yours: let go of it. Your letting go of it will be for your long-term happiness & benefit."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
samsarayoga
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by samsarayoga »

Dependant origination = kamma

5 aggregates:
• 4 elements
• 5 senses
• perception
• mind
• consciousness

I think perception is the way you react to the sensation of the 5 senses input.

While mind is independent from the senses, since a 1st jhana Brahma still has a mind.

A 4th jhana Brahma doesn't breathe which means there is no metabolism.
reality is not shaped by your mind, if this was the case there won't exist right view and wrong view to begin with (doh)
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Noble Sangha
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Noble Sangha »

Hi Ceisiwr, thank you for responding to my questions in the other threads. Much appreciate your participation. I’ll be responding in due time.

In the meantime, I was wondering if you can answer a few questions that I mention at the end of this post? By doing so, it’s possible that the things we mention in this thread can help another DW member whom I’ll be mentioning to see this thread so that it may or may not help them to further their understanding of the Buddha dhamma. But more importantly, if by the end of this discussion you’re able to realize what I’m trying to share with you. I believe it will help you the most.

You mentioned: “Yet the Buddha and Arahants are said to still experience the 5 clinging aggregates.”

Someone mentioned in another thread: “Yes, I've never understood the idea that there are two types of aggregates and an arahant has the "non-clinging" type. Of course the arahant doesn't cling, but I don't get how to define "clinging form"/"non clinging form", etc.“

Based on what I just quoted, a partial answer / resolution to what was mentioned have some commonalities or similarity. I hope the direction of this discussion moving forward can help us all to resolve the understanding if Arahants or the Buddha are said to be still experiencing the 5 clinging aggregates. Unfortunately at this time, I’m not able to give an in depth explanation. What’s discussed here doesn’t do the full justice to the understanding if Arahants or the Buddha still experiences the 5 clinging aggregates. But hopefully sufficient for one’s realization.

#1. I'm wondering, is there any difference to you where you mentioned Arahants and the Buddha still experience the 5 clinging aggregates compared to if they still cling to the 5 aggregates?

#2. From your understanding of the Buddha Dhamma, did the Buddha and Arahants “completely” eradicated / remove / etc . . . tanha from their mind?

#3. Are you familiar with the steps in Akusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada cycle? Starting with avija paccaya sankhara and ending in soka-paridēva-dukkha-dōmanassupāyasā sambhavan’ti ?
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
Jack19990101
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Jack19990101 »

Re arahant vs dependent origination

Speculatively -
Arahant is free of view of dependent origination;
actually, I think they are free of view of cause/consequences/sequencing all together, regardless it is dependent origination, secular, or kammic.
Extrapolated -
They are free of view of Sila, ethics, and N8P too.
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