Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

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Noble Sangha
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Noble Sangha »

Hi Jack, may you and all of us be well.

What you brought up is something that can be quite tricky / difficult to answer and might need explanations and clarifications. Even myself is not completely confident at this moment where I can explain or clarify this to myself with complete satisfaction. I would need to dig deeper and spend more time and effort in contemplating what you mentioned. But this is not where my focus and learning is at this time.

What makes what you mentioned tricky or difficult to draw conclusions from is that it would require precise wording and explanations. You use the word "free", I could think of support for what you mentioned, but also inconsistencies that may come up. For example, we could say Arahants and the Buddha "are free" of the Noble 8 Fold Path because they have completed it. But at the same time, it doesn't necessary mean that they don't use the Noble 8 Fold Path or the understanding or Paticca Samuppada. To make this example even more clearer and easier to understand is that think of us completing high school or post secondary. We could say we're "done or free" of high school or post secondary, but even after being done or free of schooling, we might still being using what we learned in school. Just like the Buddha or Arahants, they might be "free / done / completed" the Noble 8 Fold Path, but it doesn't necessary mean that they don't "use" what they have completed or free from.

Until someone has attained parinibbana, can we really say someone is "completely" free from the Noble 8 Fold Path even though they have completed it? Another way of understanding this is until someone attains parinibbana, can we really say that person is "completely" free from the 5 aggregates?
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ceisiwr,

Where your train of logic derails, in my opinion, is where you assume the aggregates are extant things, as opposed to that which has been ignorantly aggregated. That is an Abhidhammic definition you're using rather than a definition native to the Suttas. We've debated that point elsewhere, so I won't do it again.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Jack19990101
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Jack19990101 »

Re -
"Until someone has attained parinibbana, can we really say someone is "completely" free from the Noble 8 Fold Path even though they have completed it? Another way of understanding this is until someone attains parinibbana, can we really say that person is "completely" free from the 5 aggregates?"

Mudita.
'Free' is not very accurate - maybe 'transcend'.
Arahants get no idea where they are, who they are or how they are.
They get no more reflective mind.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:58 am Greetings Ceisiwr,

Where your train of logic derails, in my opinion, is where you assume the aggregates are extant things, as opposed to that which has been ignorantly aggregated. That is an Abhidhammic definition you're using rather than a definition native to the Suttas. We've debated that point elsewhere, so I won't do it again.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I think it stands regardless of if things really exist or not. I’m on the commute to work at the moment, so I’ll respond more fully later.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

Noble Sangha wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:08 am
#1. I'm wondering, is there any difference to you where you mentioned Arahants and the Buddha still experience the 5 clinging aggregates compared to if they still cling to the 5 aggregates?
I think the clinging aggregates vs non-clinging aggregates thing is a bit of a hullabaloo over nothing much. They are just different ways of looking at the same thing.
#2. From your understanding of the Buddha Dhamma, did the Buddha and Arahants “completely” eradicated / remove / etc . . . tanha from their mind?
Yes.
#3. Are you familiar with the steps in Akusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada cycle? Starting with avija paccaya sankhara and ending in soka-paridēva-dukkha-dōmanassupāyasā sambhavan’ti
Yes.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Dhammapardon »

I think Revulsion is confusing. Just dispassion. See them clearly and be dispassionate toward them. Like the twigs and leaves of a forest. No excitement, no disgust. Not mine, not I.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by justindesilva »

cappuccino wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:37 pm SN 22.76 is an interesting one as it states that the 5 aggregates are suffering.
Are stressful
Standing with anattalakkanasutta we can understand that rupa, vedana sangna ,sankara , vingna are made up of same energy that is transitory. Rupa transits in our body to the brain as feeling , and a signal, and the same to a construct of sight, smell taste and physical feel creating an emotion or sensation while they are 5 categories ,of transforming skandas or masses of energy. Taken one by one each skandha can be delightful which delight creates sufering. This is what is explained in abinandana sutta.
It states that taking delight in rupa vedana, sangna and sankara is suffering. And not taking delight in each means escaping suffering . Getting entangled in salayatana is phassa that conditions vedana and tanha or desires further conditions bhava by clinging to desires. By ceasing clinging to tanha suffering could be alleviated.
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Noble Sangha
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Noble Sangha »

Thank you for your answers Ceisiwr,
I think the clinging aggregates vs non-clinging aggregates thing is a bit of a hullabaloo over nothing much. They are just different ways of looking at the same thing.
It’s NOT a bit of a hullabaloo over nothing much. It’s one of the core understandings of the Buddha Dhamma that one needs to understand if one wishes to further their progress on the path. Understanding the difference between pancakkhandha (5 aggregates) and pancupadanakkhandha (5 clinging aggregates) can help one’s understanding of what Sakkaya ditthi is. Understanding the differences can help deepen one’s understanding of the purpose of the Buddha Dhamma and what one needs to do on the path. Reflect on the last line of the first noble truth! “Samkhittena pancupadanakkhandha dukkha”.

In other threads that I scanned over, I seen some decent explanations of the differences between pancakkhandha and pancupadanakkhandha, but some of the explanations is also all over the place and does not hold up to scrutiny. Depending on how and where things go, I might try to explain and share an example on how one can understand the differences between pancakkhandha and the pancupadanakkhandha. In the meantime, I would like to finish up what I’m trying to share with you based on the questions that I have asked you in this thread.

This is from the Akusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada. I have listed the initial steps.

Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ, nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ, saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso . . .

Can you help us to finish listing the rest of the steps in the Akusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada cycle? Thanks
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by pegembara »

justindesilva wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 7:47 am
cappuccino wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 10:37 pm SN 22.76 is an interesting one as it states that the 5 aggregates are suffering.
Are stressful
Standing with anattalakkanasutta we can understand that rupa, vedana sangna ,sankara , vingna are made up of same energy that is transitory. Rupa transits in our body to the brain as feeling , and a signal, and the same to a construct of sight, smell taste and physical feel creating an emotion or sensation while they are 5 categories ,of transforming skandas or masses of energy. Taken one by one each skandha can be delightful which delight creates sufering. This is what is explained in abinandana sutta.
It states that taking delight in rupa vedana, sangna and sankara is suffering. And not taking delight in each means escaping suffering . Getting entangled in salayatana is phassa that conditions vedana and tanha or desires further conditions bhava by clinging to desires. By ceasing clinging to tanha suffering could be alleviated.
There is no problem in saying painful feelings are painful.
As always, the difficulty lies in accepting those pleasant and neutral feelings are potentially painful simply because they don't last.
What most people do is try to cover up the painful and prolong the pleasant/neutral through distraction and seeking delight here and there.
The aggregates are like cocaine. There is no way taking delight in it is not going to give rise to pain in one form or another.

Seems to me that the entire gamebook is the continuation of the species(gene) rather than the 'individual'. Children are our (genes) future as they say. The dead pile up in the graveyards. Just look up the life cycle of the salmon fish.

Birth then becomes a joyful but painful event. Oxytocin does the trick here.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by mikenz66 »

Noble Sangha wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:23 pm Depending on how and where things go, I might try to explain and share an example on how one can understand the differences between pancakkhandha and the pancupadanakkhandha.
That would be helpful, as I'm yet to see an explanation that makes much sense to me.

:heart:
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Noble Sangha
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Noble Sangha »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:32 am
Noble Sangha wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:23 pm Depending on how and where things go, I might try to explain and share an example on how one can understand the differences between pancakkhandha and the pancupadanakkhandha.
That would be helpful, as I'm yet to see an explanation that makes much sense to me.

:heart:
Mike
Thank you for your direct or indirect encouragement. It helped me decide that I will write something up. It might take some time for the write up, but I hope the explanation will help us all.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

Noble Sangha wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:23 pm Thank you for your answers Ceisiwr,

It’s NOT a bit of a hullabaloo over nothing much. It’s one of the core understandings of the Buddha Dhamma that one needs to understand if one wishes to further their progress on the path. Understanding the difference between pancakkhandha (5 aggregates) and pancupadanakkhandha (5 clinging aggregates) can help one’s understanding of what Sakkaya ditthi is. Understanding the differences can help deepen one’s understanding of the purpose of the Buddha Dhamma and what one needs to do on the path. Reflect on the last line of the first noble truth! “Samkhittena pancupadanakkhandha dukkha”.
What I mean by that is the difference between the clinging and non-clinging aggregates is blown out of proportion by some people, to the extent that it is claimed that only the 5 clinging aggregates are dukkha whilst aggregates empty of clinging are not dukkha. The idea of the aggregates likely pre-dated the Buddha, as a way of classifying the atta. As a way of grounding it in reality. The Buddha was arguing that these aggregates can't be the basis of an atta, because they are dependently arisen. The clinging vs non-clinging distinction is simply two ways of looking at the same thing. If they are subject to clinging, through saying one or more of them are the atta, then much suffering comes both now and in the future. If clinging to them is removed, then much suffering is let go off both now and in the future. The aggregates themselves, with clinging or not, however are dukkha. They are dukkha if clung to, and dukkha if not clung to. The Buddha didn't say that non-dukkha is found in the aggregates free of clinging. He said it is only found with nibbāna.

This is from the Akusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada. I have listed the initial steps.

Avijjāpaccayā saṅkhārā, saṅkhārapaccayā viññāṇaṁ, viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṁ, nāmarūpapaccayā saḷāyatanaṁ, saḷāyatanapaccayā phasso . . .

Can you help us to finish listing the rest of the steps in the Akusala-Mula Paticca Samuppada cycle? Thanks
feeling > craving > clinging > existence > birth etc.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Ceisiwr »

retrofuturist wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:58 am Greetings Ceisiwr,

Where your train of logic derails, in my opinion, is where you assume the aggregates are extant things, as opposed to that which has been ignorantly aggregated. That is an Abhidhammic definition you're using rather than a definition native to the Suttas. We've debated that point elsewhere, so I won't do it again.

Metta,
Paul. :)
So to go back to this, I don't think it changes if you think of the aggregates as being extant things or not. We are quite removed from the cultural and philosophical/religious context of the Buddha's time, so it helps to bear that context in mind when thinking about the aggregates. Before the Buddha the 5 aggregates were a scheme used by ascetics and philosophers to ground the existence of the atta (it's unlikely they called them aggregates though, IMO). Some argued that the atta is to be found in form, others in conciousness and so on. What the Buddha argued is that the aggregates are not a basis for the atta. They aren't, because they dependently originate. Since they dependently originate, they are impermanent and dukkha. The atta is said to be permanent and sukha, and so due to their nature (dhamma) they cannot be the self and so are anatta. They are impermanent, dukkha and not-self. The idea of the time seems to have been that only that which is permanent can truly be sukha, and that is the atta. Or, to put it another way, only the atta is permanent and sukha. We see this type of thinking in the Upanishads, where there is a search for the permanent amongst the impermanence of sense experience. By taking the aggregates to be permanent, sukha and self the other ascetics and philosophers were not seeing correctly. They were merely clinging to something which cannot be what they desired, namely permanent, sukha and self. What the Buddha wanted to do then is to turn them away from the aggregates. He wants to show them how by claiming the aggregates are the atta, they just ended up creating dukkha for themselves. This means then that the Buddha wanted us to instead view the aggregates not as being permanent, sukha and self but rather as always being impermanent, dukkha and not-self. Now, this stands even if we view the aggregates as being real extant things or if we view them as being mere concepts/idea/perceptions only. If we take the view that he thought of them as extant things, then these extant things should always be seen as dukkha because due to extant causes and conditions they arise and cease dependently and so are impermanent, dukkha and not-self by their very nature. If we take the other view that these are not extant things but are rather mere concepts/ideas/perceptions only then we still see the aggregates as always being impermanent, dukkha and not-self because they are merely concepts that we form in the mind and apply to experience, then becoming deluded by our own formed concepts as being something permanent, sukha and self. Either way, whatever the end goal looks like, be it the realisation of the nature of extant things, the realisation of mind only or the realisation of an apophatic truth the means to get there, as the Buddha laid out, is the same. We are to see the aggregates as being nothing but dukkha, so that we can turn away from them and let go. If we say there can be a kind of pure aggregates that are not dukkha, that goes against the direction the Buddha wanted us to travel in. It's to still be looking for some kind of sukha in the aggregates, which is exactly what the Buddha's contemporaries were doing.

Both Ābhidhammikas and Venerable Nāgārjuna taught that the aggregates are dukkha, despite their differences on ontology. That is something to also bear in mind.
“The teacher willed that this world appear to me
as impermanent, unstable, insubstantial.
Mind, let me leap into the victor’s teaching,
carry me over the great flood, so hard to pass.”
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by riceandcashews »

What exactly is the claim that is being disputed here? I read through the thread but am still somewhat unclear.

Arahants are fully awakened, but at minimum arahants still have consciousness in some sense. Is this a debate about whether arahants have the other four aggregates still present (i.e. do arahants perceive, feel, have formations, and form)?
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Re: Dependent Origination, Dukkha and Rebirth

Post by Dhammapardon »

Abiding in the forest, owning nothing in the forest, making use of what the forest provides. Build your raft with the twigs and leaves and such and escape to the other shore. With gratitude, leave behind what got you there safely.

When owning nothing, establishing the understanding nothing is mine or myself, use what is available, including that which was once thought of as I or mine, to reach the goal. Do not own a feeling, perception, thought, body part.. Do not take it as the self but use it rightly when needed until it is not needed and then let it go.
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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