Desire leading to the end of desire.

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philodharma7
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Desire leading to the end of desire.

Post by philodharma7 »

I once heard a monk tell a story. I want to emphasize that this was years ago and my memory remembers only the gist of it. The story went roughly like this:

A person came to the Buddha intending to catch him in a contradiction. He posed his question to the Buddha thus: "Is it true that you teach the end of desire?"

"Yes," said the Buddha.

"Gottcha! Is not the desire for Nibbana a desire?"

"There is no contradiction. It is like when one has a sliver, one takes a needle and works out that sliver. When one has extracted it, one doesn't keep poking oneself with the needle. Such desire leads to the end of desire. There one lays it down."

This teaching seems to be showing that some desire (chanda) can be useful to a point--as opposed to tanha, which is to be abandoned.

My question is this: Has anyone seen this story or something similar in the Pali canon? Perhaps this monk was extemporizing on some sutta?

Insights?

Anyone?
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Sam Vara
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Re: Desire leading to the end of desire.

Post by Sam Vara »

It sounds to me like the Unnabha Sutta, which is the one often cited when the question "How can desire lead to the end of desire?" is asked.

https://suttacentral.net/sn51.15/en/suj ... ript=latin

The simile is different (about going somewhere and then stopping when one has got there) but the idea is the same. So I think it's likely that the monk was using his own simile to adapt the lesson, but I'd be interested to hear if there is another sutta about this.
riceandcashews
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Re: Desire leading to the end of desire.

Post by riceandcashews »

One thought I have in response to this, and perhaps this is a controversial opinion here, is that we have to be careful distinguishing the abandonment of craving and the abandonment of desire. The buddha's project is about the abandonment of craving, not the abandonment of desire.

Arahants, including the Buddha, in the suttas still seem to have desire to live, teach the dhamma, abide in this life pleasantly, etc. What they lack is craving - i.e. desire colored by ignorance of not-self.
Dhammapardon
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Re: Desire leading to the end of desire.

Post by Dhammapardon »

I didn't yet find what I was looking for but you may find what you seek in examination of right effort.
sn45.8

"And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."
Not a sutta but an excerpt from a Dhamma talk by Venerable Thanissaro.
"You look at all the verses of the elder monks, elder nuns and a lot of
them started out in really miserable circumstances. If you just looked
at the facts of their lives, you would have thought, “No chance for this
person,” and yet somehow they pulled themselves together and
decided that this is what they wanted out of life. After all, desire is a
factor of the path. It’s right there in right effort: You generate desire to
develop skillful qualities, you generate the desire to abandon unskillful
qualities. That kind of desire is good. You just need to learn how to
focus it properly, to create the right conditions."
And here about subduing of desire.
sn1.69
"With desire the world is tied down.
With the subduing of desire it's freed.
With the abandoning of desire all bonds are cut through."
It looks like desire as a tool to abandon desire. Desire not of worldly things but of the path to cessation. Once abandonment of worldly desire is experienced, so too desire for abandoning desire can be abandoned.

More evidence of desiring to be free from desire found here:
dn21
"The world is made up of many properties, various properties. Because of the many & various properties in the world, then whichever property living beings get fixated on, they become entrenched & latch onto it, saying, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.' This is why not all brahmans & contemplatives teach the same doctrine, adhere to the same precepts, desire the same thing, aim at the same goal."
And an additional line of inspiration I enjoyed while looking this stuff up:
dph24
359. "Weeds are the bane of fields, desire is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of desire yields abundant fruit."
Just as a bird, wherever it goes, flies with its wings as its only burden; so too is he content with a set of robes to provide for his body and almsfood to provide for his hunger. Wherever he goes, he takes only his barest necessities along. This is how a monk is content.(DN11)
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