Spontaneously reborn beings

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Bundokji
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Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Bundokji »

Friends,

In MN117, mundane right view includes: there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously.

How the above is best understood? It is said that humans are born due to copulation between father and mother, whereas beings in other realms are born spontaneously. Why such distinctions are necessary for mundane right view?

It is worth nothing that faith in this instance goes beyond the existence or non existence of other worlds (which is covered in other aspects of the mundane path - i.e There is this world & the next world) to the specificity of how they are born (spontaneously).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:07 am Friends,

In MN117, mundane right view includes: there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously.

How the above is best understood? It is said that humans are born due to copulation between father and mother, whereas beings in other realms are born spontaneously. Why such distinctions are necessary for mundane right view?

It is worth nothing that faith in this instance goes beyond the existence or non existence of other worlds (which is covered in other aspects of the mundane path - i.e There is this world & the next world) to the specificity of how they are born (spontaneously).
Some devas are born without pregnancy or the involvment of matter. The formless are an example. When Āḷāra Kālāma died, he arose in the realm of Nothingness without the need of parents.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Bundokji
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:30 am Some devas are born without pregnancy or the involvment of matter. The formless are an example. When Āḷāra Kālāma died, he arose in the realm of Nothingness without the need of parents.
Thank you for the reference. When i listened to the Buddhist cosmology series between Ajahn Sona and Ajahn Punnadhammo, it seems that all beings within the 31 realms of existence are reborn spontaneously, except humans and animals, or which biology can be used to explain how they came into being through empirical observations. In modern debates between secularists and creationists, the notion of "spontaneous" is often associated with "the god of the gaps" whereas "chance" became the god of atheists within this polarity.

In your view, how best the term "spontaneous" understood through the Buddha's teachings? If biology has little to do with it, then how to understand father and mother then?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:45 am

In your view, how best the term "spontaneous" understood through the Buddha's teachings? If biology has little to do with it, then how to understand father and mother then?
Humans have a mother and father. Spontaneous means they do no. In the formless, since there is no matter or physicality at all, biology does not apply.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Bundokji
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:52 am Humans have a mother and father. Spontaneous means they do no. In the formless, since there is no matter or physicality at all, biology does not apply.
If spontaneous means that humans have father and mother absence a prime cause (i.e a creator), then it could also refer to the way they breed (sexually). In the battle between devas and asuras for example, they will have to wait for humans to be reborn in either realm in order to supply their numbers. This could explain why the ministers and assembly members of the four great kings wander over this world hoping there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father. Humans seem to be a major supply chain for this ongoing war.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:07 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:52 am Humans have a mother and father. Spontaneous means they do no. In the formless, since there is no matter or physicality at all, biology does not apply.
If spontaneous means that humans have father and mother absence a prime cause (i.e a creator), then it could also refer to the way they breed (sexually). In the battle between devas and asuras for example, they will have to wait for humans to be reborn in either realm in order to supply their numbers. This could explain why the ministers and assembly members of the four great kings wander over this world hoping there are many people who behave properly toward their mother and father. Humans seem to be a major supply chain for this ongoing war.
Well, it doesn't mean that those in the formless breed sexually since breeding sexually involves physicality and matter. For those who have never experienced the formless in meditation a concept of just what the formless is like can't really be formed. I wouldn't say humans or, perhaps more accurately, human like life is a "major supply chain" since the animal realm (here or on other realms) and the denizens of the hellish dimensions can also "move up", as it were. In all honesty though, and not to be rude, this looks like another one of your philosophical flights of fancy rather than being something relevant to the path.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Mumfie
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Mumfie »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 4:07 amIn MN117, mundane right view includes: there is mother and father; there are beings who are reborn spontaneously.

How the above is best understood?
In my opinion it's best understood by taking into account the two distinct meanings of opapātika and not confusing them.

In the context of the four modes of birth, opapātika refers to a particular way of getting born – the one that's characteristic of hungry ghosts, gods, hell beings, etc.
Sāriputta, there are these four kinds of generation. What are the four? Egg-born generation, womb-born generation, moisture-born generation, and spontaneous generation...

...What is spontaneous generation? There are gods and denizens of hell and certain human beings and some beings in the lower worlds; this is called spontaneous generation.
MN12
In the contexts of wrong view and right view accompanied by the taints, opapātika has a broader sense. It means the fact that every living being's arising in the world is a re-birth (regardless of which of the four ways it happened), as opposed to the view that beings don't have any previous lives and so whenever a being arises in the world it does so for the very first time and ex nihilo.
Sāmaññaphalasutta
Ajita Kesakambalin: "There are no beings who have taken rebirth (sattā opapātikā)."

Commentary
He says there are no beings who, having passed away, reappear (by way of rebirth).

Sub-commentary
He shows: “The arising of these beings is entirely like that of a bubble. They do not come here after previously passing away.”
(Bhikkhu Bodhi, The Fruits of Recluseship)
You will notice, however, that some translators use the phrase "beings reborn spontaneously" even in the context of right and wrong view. I've never seen any of them explain why they do this, but I would guess that either they don't know about the distinction that the commentaries make or else they know about it but don't agree with it and think that the word can only mean "reborn spontaneously".
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Bundokji
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:44 am Well, it doesn't mean that those in the formless breed sexually since breeding sexually involves physicality and matter. For those who have never experienced the formless in meditation a concept of just what the formless is like can't really be formed. I wouldn't say humans or, perhaps more accurately, human like life is a "major supply chain" since the animal realm (here or on other realms) and the denizens of the hellish dimensions can also "move up", as it were. In all honesty though, and not to be rude, this looks like another one of your philosophical flights of fancy rather than being something relevant to the path.
Maybe we are referring to the formless differently. Other realms within kama loka apart from animals can be said to be formless in the sense that they are not formed in a way that can be known through the senses. Arupa loka is translated as the "formless", which is beyond the range of kama loka and dhamma knowledge. It is said that Brahmins who dwell in Arupa loka cannot hear the dhamma and are not taught by the Buddha.

Within kama loka, sexuality is not confined to humans and animals, but rather they breed sexually. In higher heavens within the kama loka, they engage in sexual acts that causes sensual pleasure, but these sexual acts do not result in breeding.

The mundane right view in MN 117 seems to follow the same sequence as in ud 5.3, which both aim at transcending kama loka:
"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
"This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path.
Understanding the degradation and corruption of sensuality precedes teaching the four noble truths and conversion into nobility. Such degradation requires understanding the dangers of kama loka, which requires understanding sensuality. Feeding the way between the devas and asuras is one danger, but there could be other dangers. For example, the hell realm could possibly have a vital function for the maintenance and persistence of kama loka, as well as other realms within this loka. Understanding it in its totality is seeming the danger in sensuality and it definitely defies the common understanding of sensuality as the mere seeking of pleasure.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Bundokji »

Mumfie wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:03 am You will notice, however, that some translators use the phrase "beings reborn spontaneously" even in the context of right and wrong view. I've never seen any of them explain why they do this, but I would guess that either they don't know about the distinction that the commentaries make or else they know about it but don't agree with it and think that the word can only mean "reborn spontaneously".
There seems to be two reasons why the human realm is central in the teaching of the Buddha:

1- The balance between pleasure and pain provides suitable conditions for awakening.

2- Supplying other realms through breeding by the womb is akin to adding fuel for samsara (the danger).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:09 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 5:44 am Well, it doesn't mean that those in the formless breed sexually since breeding sexually involves physicality and matter. For those who have never experienced the formless in meditation a concept of just what the formless is like can't really be formed. I wouldn't say humans or, perhaps more accurately, human like life is a "major supply chain" since the animal realm (here or on other realms) and the denizens of the hellish dimensions can also "move up", as it were. In all honesty though, and not to be rude, this looks like another one of your philosophical flights of fancy rather than being something relevant to the path.
Maybe we are referring to the formless differently. Other realms within kama loka apart from animals can be said to be formless in the sense that they are not formed in a way that can be known through the senses. Arupa loka is translated as the "formless", which is beyond the range of kama loka and dhamma knowledge. It is said that Brahmins who dwell in Arupa loka cannot hear the dhamma and are not taught by the Buddha.

Within kama loka, sexuality is not confined to humans and animals, but rather they breed sexually. In higher heavens within the kama loka, they engage in sexual acts that causes sensual pleasure, but these sexual acts do not result in breeding.

The mundane right view in MN 117 seems to follow the same sequence as in ud 5.3, which both aim at transcending kama loka:
"And what is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions? 'There is what is given, what is offered, what is sacrificed. There are fruits & results of good & bad actions. There is this world & the next world. There is mother & father. There are spontaneously reborn beings; there are contemplatives & brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is the right view with effluents, siding with merit, resulting in acquisitions.
"This person here is capable of understanding the Dhamma." So, aiming at Suppabuddha the leper, he gave a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper's mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path.
Understanding the degradation and corruption of sensuality precedes teaching the four noble truths and conversion into nobility. Such degradation requires understanding the dangers of kama loka, which requires understanding sensuality. Feeding the way between the devas and asuras is one danger, but there could be other dangers. For example, the hell realm could possibly have a vital function for the maintenance and persistence of kama loka, as well as other realms within this loka. Understanding it in its totality is seeming the danger in sensuality and it definitely defies the common understanding of sensuality as the mere seeking of pleasure.
Sorry but this is a needless proliferation of ideas.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:16 am Sorry but this is a needless proliferation of ideas.
Maybe, but "sensuality" as commonly understood does not quite explain the dangers of sensuality. The guilt and shame associated with it seems to belong to traditional religions rather than asceticism.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Ceisiwr »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:23 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:16 am Sorry but this is a needless proliferation of ideas.
Maybe, but "sensuality" as commonly understood does not quite explain the dangers of sensuality. The guilt and shame associated with it seems to belong to traditional religions rather than asceticism.
On a secular worldview maybe not, but on a traditional worldview enjoyment of the senses leads to aeons of death and suffering.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:33 am On a secular worldview maybe not, but on a traditional worldview enjoyment of the senses leads to aeons of death and suffering.
Both are rooted in nature and the virtues associated with preserving it. What is "natural" within the secular worldview is what appears to be instinctive hence they can never depart from the shadow of creationism. All they can do is to exchange one neurosis with another, such as exchanging sexual guilt with environmental guilt.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Mumfie
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Mumfie »

Bundokji wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:13 am
Mumfie wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:03 am You will notice, however, that some translators use the phrase "beings reborn spontaneously" even in the context of right and wrong view. I've never seen any of them explain why they do this, but I would guess that either they don't know about the distinction that the commentaries make or else they know about it but don't agree with it and think that the word can only mean "reborn spontaneously".
There seems to be two reasons why the human realm is central in the teaching of the Buddha:

1- The balance between pleasure and pain provides suitable conditions for awakening.

2- Supplying other realms through breeding by the womb is akin to adding fuel for samsara (the danger).
I agree with your first point, but I can't see what its connection might be to what I posted. Would you like to expand on it?

I'm not sure that I even understand the second point. As I understand the teaching, samsāra's fuel is ignorance and craving and all the unwholesome things that arise from these, regardless of which realm of existence they might arise in. I don't see how the human realm would play any exceptional role here. Also, as with the first point, I don't see any connection with what I posted, which was merely a clarification of the traditional Theravadin understanding of the meaning of opapātika.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Bundokji
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Re: Spontaneously reborn beings

Post by Bundokji »

Mumfie wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 7:08 am
Bundokji wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:13 am
Mumfie wrote: Sun Dec 04, 2022 6:03 am You will notice, however, that some translators use the phrase "beings reborn spontaneously" even in the context of right and wrong view. I've never seen any of them explain why they do this, but I would guess that either they don't know about the distinction that the commentaries make or else they know about it but don't agree with it and think that the word can only mean "reborn spontaneously".
There seems to be two reasons why the human realm is central in the teaching of the Buddha:

1- The balance between pleasure and pain provides suitable conditions for awakening.

2- Supplying other realms through breeding by the womb is akin to adding fuel for samsara (the danger).
I agree with your first point, but I can't see what its connection might be to what I posted. Would you like to expand on it?

I'm not sure that I even understand the second point. As I understand the teaching, samsāra's fuel is ignorance and craving and all the unwholesome things that arise from these, regardless of which realm of existence they might arise in. I don't see how the human realm would play any exceptional role here. Also, as with the first point, I don't see any connection with what I posted, which was merely a clarification of the traditional Theravadin understanding of the meaning of opapātika.
Right view with effluents as explained in MN117 leads to rebirth either in higher realms within kama loka (hence with effluents - desirable to those who do not see the danger). Unless the Buddha was teaching biology, the distinction between different types of birth or which "Spontaneously" is only one serves to teach the dangers of sensuality, which can be understood through other suttas that explain the interrelation between different realms such as AN 3.37. Do you know the effects of the war between the Devas and Asuras on the human realm, if any?

When MN 117 explains supramundane right view, it begins with understanding (The discernment) which is the antidote to ignorance.

I did not quote your entire post because what the commentaries say not interest me much, but linking "beings reborn spontaneously" to right view and wrong view does.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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