DO - Connection between Suffering, Conviction, and Joy

[Dhammapardon]

Using SN 12.23 for reference
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

DO seems to go around in a circle but there is what I think of as a pivot point. Coming from ignorance and leading to suffering, things not so good. But then suffering leads to conviction and conviction to joy and then onward to cessation. What is taking place between suffering, conviction, and joy? What is in this relationship between the three that causes what looks like a pivot?

Ignorance
Fabrications
Consciousness
Name & Form
Six sense media
Contact
Feeling
Craving
Clinging
Becoming
Birth

Stress & Suffering
Conviction
Joy

Rapture
Serenity
Pleasure
Concentration
Knowledge & Vision of things as they actually are
Disenchantment
Dispassion
Release
Knowledge of ending
Ignorance (oops!)

[Sam Vara]

Using SN 12.23 for reference
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

DO seems to go around in a circle but there is what I think of as a pivot point. Coming from ignorance and leading to suffering, things not so good. But then suffering leads to conviction and conviction to joy and then onward to cessation. What is taking place between suffering, conviction, and joy? What is in this relationship between the three that causes what looks like a pivot?

Ignorance
Fabrications
Consciousness
Name & Form
Six sense media
Contact
Feeling
Craving
Clinging
Becoming
Birth

Stress & Suffering
Conviction
Joy

Rapture
Serenity
Pleasure
Concentration
Knowledge & Vision of things as they actually are
Disenchantment
Dispassion
Release
Knowledge of ending
Ignorance (oops!)

DO doesn't really go around in a circle, either here or elsewhere. What is happening in SN12.23 is that we are working backwards from "knowledge of ending", all the way to "ignorance", by way of supporting conditions, also translated as "proximate causes"; and then doing the reverse trip, from ignorance to knowledge of ending. It's just two ways of examining the same process.

Referring to the section as a "pivot" is, I think, absolutely right. It is for most of us the key to the whole process. And the best explanation of this that I have heard recently is in this video of Ajahn Amaro, posted a week ago in a different thread:



It's covered in the first 20 minutes or so. The gist is that one starts to look at suffering in a different manner, essentially depersonalising it and treating it as a problem to be solved, rather than an affliction of oneself that merely provokes one into a habitual reaction to change one's world. Amaro refers to the Nibbedhikasutta:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

and also makes reference to the Upanisasutta which you reference. I can't recommend it highly enough.

[pegembara]

Suffering itself is the reason for the drive to seek a solution(conviction). It can result in the noble search.
The solution can be found through the right meditation practice.

"And what is the noble search? There is the case where a person, himself being subject to birth, seeing the drawbacks of birth, seeks the unborn, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Himself being subject to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeks the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, undefiled, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. This is the noble search.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.

[Dhammapardon]

Referring to the section as a "pivot" is, I think, absolutely right. It is for most of us the key to the whole process. And the best explanation of this that I have heard recently is in this video of Ajahn Amaro, posted a week ago in a different thread:



It's covered in the first 20 minutes or so. The gist is that one starts to look at suffering in a different manner, essentially depersonalising it and treating it as a problem to be solved, rather than an affliction of oneself that merely provokes one into a habitual reaction to change one's world. Amaro refers to the Nibbedhikasutta:

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

and also makes reference to the Upanisasutta which you reference. I can't recommend it highly enough.

I see. Dukkha ripens in two ways: more dukkha or search out of dukkha.

More dukkha experienced with Avijjā (ignorance) leads to more dukkha.

More dukkha experienced with enough of some level of sati (mindfulness), paññā (wisdom), or ñāṇa (understanding) leads to faith and conviction there is a way out of dukkha.

Through exploration of one's personal experience with dukkha, eventually a breakthrough in understanding causes an "Aha!" moment, a light bulb moment, a realization of some truth. This brings joy and carries one further along the path.

Ajahn Amaro is very wise. Thank you Sam Vara.

Suffering itself is the reason for the drive to seek a solution(conviction). It can result in the noble search.
The solution can be found through the right meditation practice.

This makes much more sense now in short what the video says in long.

[Ceisiwr]

Using SN 12.23 for reference
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

DO seems to go around in a circle but there is what I think of as a pivot point. Coming from ignorance and leading to suffering, things not so good. But then suffering leads to conviction and conviction to joy and then onward to cessation. What is taking place between suffering, conviction, and joy? What is in this relationship between the three that causes what looks like a pivot?

Ignorance
Fabrications
Consciousness
Name & Form
Six sense media
Contact
Feeling
Craving
Clinging
Becoming
Birth

Stress & Suffering
Conviction
Joy

Rapture
Serenity
Pleasure
Concentration
Knowledge & Vision of things as they actually are
Disenchantment
Dispassion
Release
Knowledge of ending
Ignorance (oops!)

I read this is referring to the hindrances. The hindrances are suffering. On understanding that, one gains conviction in the Buddha. Through conviction, energy. With energy the hindrances subside. When one sees that one's heart/mind (citta) is free of the hindrances, rapture arises leading to samādhi. It's about dependent origination and meditation.