arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

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auto
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arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

here's on what he got arhant,
https://suttacentral.net/ud1.10/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“In that case, Bāhiya, you should train like this:
“Tasmātiha te, bāhiya, evaṁ sikkhitabbaṁ:
‘In the seen will be merely the seen; in the heard will be merely the heard; in the thought will be merely the thought; in the known will be merely the known.’
‘diṭṭhe diṭṭhamattaṁ bhavissati, sute sutamattaṁ bhavissati, mute mutamattaṁ bhavissati, viññāte viññātamattaṁ bhavissatī’ti.
mind was freed,
wrote:Then, due to this brief Dhamma teaching of the Buddha, Bāhiya’s mind was right away freed from defilements by not grasping.
Atha kho bāhiyassa dārucīriyassa bhagavato imāya saṅkhittāya dhammadesanāya tāvadeva anupādāya āsavehi cittaṁ vimucci.
his death is parinibbana
wrote:Bāhiya of the Bark Cloth has become fully extinguished.”
Parinibbuto, bhikkhave, bāhiyo dārucīriyo”ti.
'mind is freed' is not buddha grade arhant.
His attainment means that his mind does not scatter externally,
https://suttacentral.net/mn138/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: And how is consciousness not scattered and diffused externally?
Kathañcāvuso, bahiddhā viññāṇaṁ avikkhittaṁ avisaṭanti vuccati?
Take a mendicant who sees a sight with their eyes. Their consciousness doesn’t follow after the features of that sight, and is not tied, attached, and fettered to gratification in its features. So their consciousness is said to be not scattered and diffused externally.
Idhāvuso, bhikkhuno cakkhunā rūpaṁ disvā na rūpanimittānusāri viññāṇaṁ hoti, na rūpanimittassādagadhitaṁ na rūpanimittassādavinibandhaṁ na rūpanimittassādasaṁyojanasaṁyuttaṁ bahiddhā viññāṇaṁ avikkhittaṁ avisaṭanti vuccati.
He can unify his mind based on the arupa.. it reminds the mn43,
https://suttacentral.net/mn137/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: And what is equanimity based on unity?
Katamā ca, bhikkhave, upekkhā ekattā ekattasitā?
There is equanimity based on the dimensions of infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, and neither perception nor non-perception.
Atthi, bhikkhave, upekkhā ākāsānañcāyatananissitā, atthi viññāṇañcāyatananissitā, atthi ākiñcaññāyatananissitā, atthi nevasaññānāsaññāyatananissitā—
mn43 when mind is released from the 5 senses one can be aware of arupa..
https://suttacentral.net/mn43/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“What can be known by purified mind consciousness released from the five senses?”
“Nissaṭṭhena hāvuso, pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena kiṁ neyyan”ti? Variant: Nissaṭṭhena hāvuso → nissaṭṭhena panāvuso (?)

“Aware that ‘space is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite space. Aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’ it can know the dimension of infinite consciousness. Aware that ‘there is nothing at all’ it can know the dimension of nothingness.”
“Nissaṭṭhena, āvuso, pañcahi indriyehi parisuddhena manoviññāṇena ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṁ neyyaṁ, ‘anantaṁ viññāṇan’ti viññāṇañcāyatanaṁ neyyaṁ, ‘natthi kiñcī’ti ākiñcaññāyatanaṁ neyyan”ti.
Quote fest but these above support the idea that Bahiya still need further training regards to the internal(ajjhattaṁ),
standard jhana here,
wrote:https://suttacentral.net/mn138/en/sujat ... ript=latin
And how is their consciousness not stuck internally?
Kathañcāvuso, ajjhattaṁ asaṇṭhitanti vuccati? Variant: ajjhattaṁ → ajjhattaṁ cittaṁ (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed)
It’s when a mendicant, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from
..
Their consciousness doesn’t follow after that rapture and bliss born of seclusion, and is not tied, attached, and fettered to gratification in that rapture and bliss born of seclusion. So their mind is said to be not stuck internally.
auto
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

further i believe,
this part should be about his attainment where mind is freed and it knows the arupa dimensions
https://suttacentral.net/ud1.10/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Where water and earth,
“Yattha āpo ca pathavī,
fire and air find no footing:
tejo vāyo na gādhati;
there no star does shine,
Na tattha sukkā jotanti,
nor does the sun shed its light;
ādicco nappakāsati;
there the moon glows not,
Na tattha candimā bhāti,
yet no darkness is found.
tamo tattha na vijjati.
This should refer to the freed by non-clinging,
wrote:And when a sage, a brahmin, finds understanding
Yadā ca attanāvedi, Variant: attanāvedi → … vedī (bj); … vedhī (mr)
through their own sagacity,
muni monena brāhmaṇo;
this part is the full awakening,
wrote:then from forms and formless,
Atha rūpā arūpā ca,
from pleasure and pain they are released.”
sukhadukkhā pamuccatī”ti.
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Nicolas
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by Nicolas »

Cūḷarāhulovāda sutta (MN147) wrote: “The qualities that ripen in freedom have ripened in Rāhula. Why don’t I lead him further to the ending of defilements?”
[...]
“Today the Buddha will lead Rāhula further to the ending of defilements!”
[...]
And while this discourse was being spoken, Rāhula’s mind was freed from defilements by not grasping.
Tiṁsamatta sutta (SN 15.13) wrote: These thirty mendicants from Pāvā live in the wilderness, eat only almsfood, wear rag robes, and own just three robes; yet they all still have fetters. Why don’t I teach them the Dhamma in such a way that their minds are freed from defilements by not grasping while sitting in this very seat?
SarathW
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by SarathW »

Interesting point of discussion.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Joe.c
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by Joe.c »

Free from asava(s) is an arahant. Don't try to remove or add anything else.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

Nicolas wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:15 pm
Cūḷarāhulovāda sutta (MN147) wrote: “The qualities that ripen in freedom have ripened in Rāhula. Why don’t I lead him further to the ending of defilements?”
[...]
“Today the Buddha will lead Rāhula further to the ending of defilements!”
[...]
And while this discourse was being spoken, Rāhula’s mind was freed from defilements by not grasping.
Tiṁsamatta sutta (SN 15.13) wrote: These thirty mendicants from Pāvā live in the wilderness, eat only almsfood, wear rag robes, and own just three robes; yet they all still have fetters. Why don’t I teach them the Dhamma in such a way that their minds are freed from defilements by not grasping while sitting in this very seat?
They become anagami. The rebirth is ended, is regards to the anagami attainment of transcending human existence(bhava). Whereas if you want full enlightenment then you need human existence and realize nibbana with the ordinary mind.
auto
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

SarathW wrote: Mon Dec 05, 2022 8:53 pm Interesting point of discussion.
yup
auto
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:43 am Free from asava(s) is an arahant.
by your logic, an infant is an arhant.
SarathW
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by SarathW »

auto wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:36 pm
Joe.c wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:43 am Free from asava(s) is an arahant.
by your logic, an infant is an arhant.
Who said that the infant is free from Asava?
Could you provide the Sutta reference, please?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
auto
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

SarathW wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:45 pm
auto wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:36 pm
Joe.c wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 1:43 am Free from asava(s) is an arahant.
by your logic, an infant is an arhant.
Who said that the infant is free from Asava?
Could you provide the Sutta reference, please?
yes,
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Wouldn’t the wanderers who follow other paths fault you using the simile of the infant?

For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them?
Daharassa hi, mālukyaputta, kumārassa mandassa uttānaseyyakassa sakkāyotipi na hoti, kuto panassa uppajjissati sakkāyadiṭṭhi?

Yet the underlying tendency to identity view still lies within them.
Anusetvevassa sakkāyadiṭṭhānusayo.
SarathW
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by SarathW »

auto wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:01 pm
SarathW wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:45 pm
auto wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:36 pm
by your logic, an infant is an arhant.
Who said that the infant is free from Asava?
Could you provide the Sutta reference, please?
yes,
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote: Wouldn’t the wanderers who follow other paths fault you using the simile of the infant?

For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them?
Daharassa hi, mālukyaputta, kumārassa mandassa uttānaseyyakassa sakkāyotipi na hoti, kuto panassa uppajjissati sakkāyadiṭṭhi?

Yet the underlying tendency to identity view still lies within them.
Anusetvevassa sakkāyadiṭṭhānusayo.
I do not think this support your claim.
Unless I or you misunderstood this sutta.
Infant have not eliminated the identity view.
He still have the Anusaya in him.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:36 pm by your logic, an infant is an arhant.
Haha...

How can you compare an infant with an arahant? This is totally ignorance question or statement.

An arahant knows his mind is completely free from asavas. No more bonds. No one needs to confirm it for them.

An infant can't even know how to speak yet, let alone think properly.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
auto
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

SarathW wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 11:47 pm I do not think this support your claim.
Unless I or you misunderstood this sutta.
Infant have not eliminated the identity view.
He still have the Anusaya in him.
Infant doesn't have identity view and lacks the possibility for it to arise for said reason. So if there is no possibility to arise then the anusaya is ineffective. Infant may have the anysaya but there is no way for it to arise.
It is what the sutta says here,
https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:For a little baby doesn’t even have a concept of ‘identity’, so how could identity view possibly arise in them?
notice the word yet
wrote:Yet the underlying tendency to identity view still lies within them.
Anusetvevassa sakkāyadiṭṭhānusayo.
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by auto »

Joe.c wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:58 am
auto wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 3:36 pm by your logic, an infant is an arhant.
How can you compare an infant with an arahant? This is totally ignorance question or statement.
You did compare infant with an arhant. Here's how: Infant doesn't have 'greed for sensual pleasures'(anusaya) thus the defilement(sensual pleasure) can't arise, therefore by your logic infant is an arhant, because infant doesn't have asava.
Joe.c wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 1:58 am An arahant knows his mind is completely free from asavas. No more bonds. No one needs to confirm it for them.
Arhant knows that his defilements are gone if he looks at them. There is a sutta what shows with a simile about someone who has no legs, he is not aware all the time that he has no legs.
--
There are differences between arhants. Sutta says that there is,
https://suttacentral.net/sn22.58/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:This is the difference between a Realized One, a perfected one, a fully awakened Buddha, and a mendicant freed by wisdom.”
Ayaṁ kho, bhikkhave, viseso, ayaṁ adhippayāso, idaṁ nānākaraṇaṁ tathāgatassa arahato sammāsambuddhassa paññāvimuttena bhikkhunā”ti.
It is reasonable to think whether a mind freed by wisdom really is that freed as buddha's mind?
and you can find sutta what says perfected one still develops mind,
https://suttacentral.net/sn54.11/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:For those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, .. —the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to blissful meditation in the present life, and to mindfulness and awareness.
buddha says,
wrote:“Mendicants, I wish to go on retreat for three months.
“icchāmahaṁ, bhikkhave, temāsaṁ paṭisallīyituṁ.
Joe.c
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Re: arhant bahiya is not done, ud1.10

Post by Joe.c »

auto wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 3:34 pm You did compare infant with an arhant. Here's how: Infant doesn't have 'greed for sensual pleasures'(anusaya) thus the defilement(sensual pleasure) can't arise, therefore by your logic infant is an arhant, because infant doesn't have asava.
I just stop reading until here. Please answer this first: Can an infant cry without reason? If they can cry alot, how can they be free from sensual pleasure or other feelings?
SN 54.11 wrote:For those mendicants who are perfected—who have ended the defilements, .. —the development and cultivation of immersion due to mindfulness of breathing leads to blissful meditation in the present life, and to mindfulness and awareness.
Human body is tiring. It is better stay in higher jhana. If one is associating with lay people or talking alot (even a dhamma) all day long. These activities are tiring the human body which is coarse.

There is no development of mind for an arahant anymore. It is just mainly maintaining the samadhi for 24/7. If you perfected the path, you just use the wisdom to enter higher jhana or check wisdom from time and time again and again for blisful life till end of life. Especially nowadays, there is no Samma Sambuddha that can come instantly and verified it for you.

Nobody (even a monk who might have long vassa etc) can be trusted at all. Everything & everyone needs to be checked and proved again and again.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
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