What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by SarathW »

santa100 wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 10:32 pm
Radix wrote:And they should be willing to die from hunger.
While that's pretty impressive, it's nothing compared to this:
MN 21 wrote:"Monks, even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.
:goodpost:
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asahi
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by asahi »

Johann wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:01 am Monks aren't homies, shouldn't serve as such, good householder. For it wouldn't be elevating if saluting a mirror.
Dont take me wrong , two-way street runs in both directions . If you have been to different countries you will notice how many of the monastics nowadays has becomes . The only time when monastics shows some "friendly" mien is when they are doing fundraising . So , it is kind of 《quid pro quo》 exchanges of interests .
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DiamondNgXZ
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Johann wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:02 am
How can a monk gain and hold such as a reddit or google account and use it for ways to liberate from bonds (e.g. against the owners interest)?

How can one even raise such questions on public markets?

It's not a light issue to disregard and doubt the perfection of the Dhamma Vinaya, and not a light issue to act as a corrupter of families, making favors and serve householders favors.

The Gems require others to let go of common and take on Noble. Monks are not given, not asked, to serve market demands, but might go for such for a living.

Again: it's not for anybodies prosperty to be in relation with Alajjī communities.
Exactly good question. Monastics on reddit, inspiring or not?

You might find it uninspiring, but for the many people I had helped there, they might find it inspiring. It's totally not in the Vinaya, so according to some it should be allowed, according to some others, it shouldn't. Anyway, I do find r/Buddhism in reddit to be just like a Buddhist forum, not much different from here, except that I prefer to hang out there more. Upvotes are good feedback mechanisms.

Regardless, outside of Vinaya means it's allowed. But there's such a thing as Korwat. Extra Vinaya things some monastics follow in their local monasteries. It differs from monastery to monastery. And whatever the result of the survey, it couldn't be enforced, but it does provide more information for the monasteries to perhaps review their Korwat rules.

And the real survey will not just ask opinions of lay people, monastics are allowed to join in and the responses will be separated according to many criterions like nationality, ordination status, gender, etc. So this shouldn't be termed as corruptor of families. Lay people can say vegan monastics are very inspiring, doesn't mean all monastics would become vegan right?

Since it's all extra Vinaya, and the aim is not to add or remove from the Vinaya, there's no question of doubting the Dhamma Vinaya. It's also a good thing to keep on discussing how new technologies and situations are applied to monastics.
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mjaviem
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by mjaviem »

I find uninspiring when noticing a monastic likes being praised. Also when I notice they like becoming the helpful monk that leads people to the right path. I find uninspiring when they seek to please others.
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by Johann »

asahi wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:12 am
Johann wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 9:01 am Monks aren't homies, shouldn't serve as such, good householder. For it wouldn't be elevating if saluting a mirror.
Dont take me wrong , two-way street runs in both directions . If you have been to different countries you will notice how many of the monastics nowadays has becomes . The only time when monastics shows some "friendly" mien is when they are doing fundraising . So , it is kind of 《quid pro quo》 exchanges of interests .
Sadly, better just true... my person heard from lay people in the west, in regard of forum-heros, as well. There runs a lot of money... smiles and tears... around those doing favors.

How eve, good householder: at both times, either people give, or take, no need to sozialice, for a disciple of the Buddha.
mjaviem wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 12:02 pm I find uninspiring when noticing a monastic likes being praised. Also when I notice they like becoming the helpful monk that leads people to the right path. I find uninspiring when they seek to please others.
Most understandable exept of "meeting a monk pointing out the way and fault", since a wise would grasphold such, good householder.
DiamondNgXZ wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:01 am
Johann wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 3:02 am
How can a monk gain and hold such as a reddit or google account and use it for ways to liberate from bonds (e.g. against the owners interest)?

How can one even raise such questions on public markets?

It's not a light issue to disregard and doubt the perfection of the Dhamma Vinaya, and not a light issue to act as a corrupter of families, making favors and serve householders favors.

The Gems require others to let go of common and take on Noble. Monks are not given, not asked, to serve market demands, but might go for such for a living.

Again: it's not for anybodies prosperty to be in relation with Alajjī communities.
Exactly good question. Monastics on reddit, inspiring or not?

You might find it uninspiring, but for the many people I had helped there, they might find it inspiring. It's totally not in the Vinaya, so according to some it should be allowed, according to some others, it shouldn't. Anyway, I do find r/Buddhism in reddit to be just like a Buddhist forum, not much different from here, except that I prefer to hang out there more. Upvotes are good feedback mechanisms.
Nothing wrong when given, invited, by the owner, for the right purpose. All wrong and improper when using what's not given, even against the traders interest (bind people in the world.

It's like monks open a kiosk on a market...
Regardless, outside of Vinaya means it's allowed. But there's such a thing as Korwat. Extra Vinaya things some monastics follow in their local monasteries. It differs from monastery to monastery. And whatever the result of the survey, it couldn't be enforced, but it does provide more information for the monasteries to perhaps review their Korwat rules.
There is nothing not covered by the Dhamma-Vinaya! It's simply not allowable in regard of Vinaya and improper in regard of Dhamma.
And the real survey will not just ask opinions of lay people, monastics are allowed to join in and the responses will be separated according to many criterions like nationality, ordination status, gender, etc. So this shouldn't be termed as corruptor of families. Lay people can say vegan monastics are very inspiring, doesn't mean all monastics would become vegan right?
May Bhante quick come to mind. What's his task? Why does he gain food, medicine...
Since it's all extra Vinaya, and the aim is not to add or remove from the Vinaya, there's no question of doubting the Dhamma Vinaya. It's also a good thing to keep on discussing how new technologies and situations are applied to monastics.
Actually Bhante has nothing to seek outside his teacher-relation till he is released from Nissaya (min 5 years, if not qualities like an Arahat, for a livetime.

He should give all his teacher to read, and if he doesn't come to mind as well, quick seek another.
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Radix
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by Radix »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Tue Dec 06, 2022 8:12 amMy teacher has an idea to do a perception of recluses survey (Samanasaññā survey).

It's basically contains questions of the verbal and physical behaviour of monastics beyond the Vinaya to be seen as inspiring or uninspiring to lay people.
Inspiring to what end?

Uninspiring to what end?

Can you explain?

What can lay people possibly know, when they aren't even sotapannas?

How can lay people assess what is inspiring toward nibbana, when they aren't even sotapannas?
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Radix
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by Radix »

Johann wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:37 pm Atma (my person) does not no one Upasaka/Upasika who would ever say "they should be willing to die from hunger" since there are those who don't seek out for their favors.

Yet, with such "demand-attitude" one would never met, never see really, get into relation for one's welfare, release.
This "demand attitude" is in response to the attitude of monastics. If they treat me like I don't exist, I am going to treat them like they don't exist. If they demand things from me, I will demand things from them. I didn't start this.
Good to simple remember one's duties:
"In five ways, young householder, should a householder minister to ascetics and brahmans as the Zenith:

(i) by goodwilling deeds,
(ii) by goodwilling words,
(iii) by goodwilling thoughts,
(iv) by keeping open house to them,
(v) by supplying their material needs.
Which monastics are you talking about? I can list some that you criticize severely. Do I have a "duty" to them as well?

I have seen you criticize people for giving to the wrong monastics (and what demerit this means for those lay people).
"The ascetics and brahmans thus ministered to as the Zenith by a householder show their compassion towards him in six ways:

(i) they restrain him from evil,
(ii) they persuade him to do good,
(iii) they have goodwill with a kind heart,
(iv) they make him hear what he has not heard,
(v) they clarify what he has already heard,
(vi) they point out the path to a heavenly state.
That would be some inspiring monastics to meet.

But what when I have no rights!! No rights to ask questions about things that trouble me, no rights to speak up, no rights!

Tell me, good Johann: Do you care whether I have faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha? Or do you think that it's all my problem and my failing if I don't have such faith?
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Radix
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by Radix »

I generally find it uninspiring when monastics disrobe. Specifically, when it's monastics who, while still monastics, severely criticized the ways of the world, severely criticized lay people. And then they turn around and become exactly what they criticized so severely.
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by Johann »

Radix wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:10 pm
Johann wrote: Thu Dec 08, 2022 11:37 pm Atma (my person) does not no one Upasaka/Upasika who would ever say "they should be willing to die from hunger" since there are those who don't seek out for their favors.

Yet, with such "demand-attitude" one would never met, never see really, get into relation for one's welfare, release.
This "demand attitude" is in response to the attitude of monastics. If they treat me like I don't exist, I am going to treat them like they don't exist. If they demand things from me, I will demand things from them. I didn't start this.
Where would good householders release or access in "this for that"?
Good to simple remember one's duties:
"In five ways, young householder, should a householder minister to ascetics and brahmans as the Zenith:

(i) by goodwilling deeds,
(ii) by goodwilling words,
(iii) by goodwilling thoughts,
(iv) by keeping open house to them,
(v) by supplying their material needs.
Which monastics are you talking about? I can list some that you criticize severely. Do I have a "duty" to them as well?
As Upasaka, yes. Even bad children, still children. At least the 3 first are always good. And the 4,5 in cases of one coming, going, hunger, sick. As the fifth proper occasion for gifts is "just" for virtuous.
I have seen you criticize people for giving to the wrong monastics (and what demerit this means for those lay people).
Yes. Not wrong, but certain evil. And surely not in regard of the four requisites, but founds to support spreading they wrong views and agendas via the Gems reputation, such as SC.
"The ascetics and brahmans thus ministered to as the Zenith by a householder show their compassion towards him in six ways:

(i) they restrain him from evil,
(ii) they persuade him to do good,
(iii) they have goodwill with a kind heart,
(iv) they make him hear what he has not heard,
(v) they clarify what he has already heard,
(vi) they point out the path to a heavenly state.
That would be some inspiring monastics to meet.

But what when I have no rights!! No rights to ask questions about things that trouble me, no rights to speak up, no rights!
So is it, does it, good householder. No rights at all, yet all freedom: to ask, to act good, to act bad. To take refuge, to practice.

Tell me, good Johann: Do you care whether I have faith in the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha? Or do you think that it's all my problem and my failing if I don't have such faith?
[/quote]
Whould it help if saying "yes, much"? Would it help if saying "not at all"?

Would someone, having left a lot, even most near behind, lead burdensome and not at all pleasing approaches in a total not welcoming environment of stingy consumer if not feeling an urgent for some with a little lesser dust in the eye.

Important is to gain the right perception toward the Gems. Once one hears the Dhamma, one sees the Buddha. Seeing the Arahat, one sees the Dhamma. And at the same time, a member of the ideal Sangha arises, able to know of whats inside and what outside of that "family".

My person has less doubt that good householder will not success in getting the right exit from Drama to Dhammawheel.

mudita
Radix wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 4:16 pm I generally find it uninspiring when monastics disrobe. Specifically, when it's monastics who, while still monastics, severely criticized the ways of the world, severely criticized lay people. And then they turn around and become exactly what they criticized so severely.
A total faith-destroyer, yes. Good to keep it in mind for later, to do never ever return. They are known as "loser and cheater", those gone back to the lower live. Not much inspiring and often destroy faith of many.
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by DiamondNgXZ »

Johann wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:01 pm There is nothing not covered by the Dhamma-Vinaya! It's simply not allowable in regard of Vinaya and improper in regard of Dhamma.

May Bhante quick come to mind. What's his task? Why does he gain food, medicine...

Actually Bhante has nothing to seek outside his teacher-relation till he is released from Nissaya (min 5 years, if not qualities like an Arahat, for a livetime.

He should give all his teacher to read, and if he doesn't come to mind as well, quick seek another.
1. There's quite a lot not covered by the Dhamma Vinaya. Can monastics use internet? Can Monastics own smartphone? When neuralink comes out and we can put chips in our brains, can monastics do that? Can we ordain people with chips in their brain? Are they still considered humans, or cyborgs? At what point do we draw a line between humans and cyborgs to become total android?

What's not allowed in regard to Vinaya? What's improper in regard to the Dhamma in that particular statement you're making?

If we go blanket everything not mentioned in Vinaya is allowable is not allowed, the monastics shouldn't be allowed online, as there's no mention of it in the Vinaya. Monastics shouldn't be allowed to read books, as books are not a thing in ancient India. Etc, If everything not mentioned in the Vinaya is allowed, then it's really the job of Korwat to help identify dangers and help restraint.

Or are you saying that Korwat, as in introducing additional "rules" to govern monastic behaviour beyond the Vinaya is improper with regards to the Dhamma?

2. What's monk's task? Are you referring to the Vegan thing? Cause I am using it as an example that whatever the result of the survey, it's not binding. It's more of an information, for your information (FYI) kinda thing.

3. Well, it's good to encourage the pursue of Nibbana, but there's also the practical discussion of monastic rules. It's good to have more people in the conversation rather than just one's own teacher. If some community says ebooks, etc are not considered stealing when downloaded for free outside of legal means, and another says even software can be stolen, and it's within pārajika 2. Then how? One is considered a monk there and not a monk in another place? Vinaya is more of a community standards thing, and it's good to have some discussion on new things which comes out.

Let me just paste some of the good questions I got from the google link and I find it good questions to ask the public.


Monastics who understand science.

The monastic supports mask-wearing, vaccination and other measures to cutb the spread of Covid-19.

The monastic shows respect for their civil responsibilities e.g. voting.

Monastics who incorporate other content (philosophy, education, science) into dharma teachings

Monastics who speaks poorly of/questioning LGBT people

Monastics keeping a pet

Monastics who smoke.

Monastics who quote conspiracy theories.

Monastics Tapping / scrolling on a smartphone in public

Drinking water standing up (note there's no vinaya rule that says must sit to drink, although it's a Korwat in Thailand)

Monastics refusing offerings that are in line with vinaya because of dietary preference

Monastics working out for health

If you say everything is covered by the Dhamma-Vinaya, what's your answer to the list above? I would just put it as inspiring or not inspiring, instead of monastics are allowed or not allowed to do such and such so that there's no pressure for monastics to have to conform. It's really up to people once we got the data.
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by JamesTheGiant »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 9:01 am ...
One thing that lowers my respect for a bhikkhu is them not saying "I don't know" when they actually don't know.
Too often I see bhikkhus try to make up an answer or waffle or prevaricate, instead of honestly saying they do not know the answer.
There's no shame in not knowing everything.
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by Johann »

DiamondNgXZ wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 1:01 am
Johann wrote: Fri Dec 09, 2022 1:01 pm There is nothing not covered by the Dhamma-Vinaya! It's simply not allowable in regard of Vinaya and improper in regard of Dhamma.

May Bhante quick come to mind. What's his task? Why does he gain food, medicine...

Actually Bhante has nothing to seek outside his teacher-relation till he is released from Nissaya (min 5 years, if not qualities like an Arahat, for a livetime.

He should give all his teacher to read, and if he doesn't come to mind as well, quick seek another.
1. There's quite a lot not covered by the Dhamma Vinaya. Can monastics use internet? Can Monastics own smartphone? When neuralink comes out and we can put chips in our brains, can monastics do that? Can we ordain people with chips in their brain? Are they still considered humans, or cyborgs? At what point do we draw a line between humans and cyborgs to become total android?
Certain Bhante isn't able to understand the different between use and way of gain. Yet even if proper gained (not actually to be abounded and confessed) it is bound to the kind of use, as one of the four paccaya and for Dhamma exchange in proper way.
What's not allowed in regard to Vinaya? What's improper in regard to the Dhamma in that particular statement you're making?
Taking not given is not allowed. Asking householder (register uninvited an account) isn't allowable. Trade with householder, exchange, isn't allowed (sign a contract...). Going out at improper time isn't allowed. Leaving monastery without informing, isn't allowed. Assist, receive from others then ones Nissaya, if not given isn't allowed. Spending much time with householder, lay people... is improper. Doning favors for living, Sanghadisesa.... using charity more often then 2, 3 times in need, isn't proper... if Bhante likes a list of wrong he did, it will needs some days to go through and even parajikas isn't not not in range.

If we go blanket everything not mentioned in Vinaya is allowable is not allowed, the monastics shouldn't be allowed online, as there's no mention of it in the Vinaya. Monastics shouldn't be allowed to read books, as books are not a thing in ancient India. Etc, If everything not mentioned in the Vinaya is allowed, then it's really the job of Korwat to help identify dangers and help restraint.
There are the four great standards, which of course require deep understanding of Dhamma Vinaya at first place (advice from an Anagami, Arahat). Wordlings are to blind and defiled to get the point, purpose. Like children.
Or are you saying that Korwat, as in introducing additional "rules" to govern monastic behaviour beyond the Vinaya is improper with regards to the Dhamma?
Kor-wat, Guru - vatta, teacher of way of conduct, is given by Vinaya. What[ the use of such, aside of making bridges to include non-monastics and living under a roof, on one table?
2. What's monk's task? Are you referring to the Vegan thing? Cause I am using it as an example that whatever the result of the survey, it's not binding. It's more of an information, for your information (FYI) kinda thing.
If Bhante would live on Alms giving, he would certain know that there is no point at all. It's Devadatta-Dhamma, to impress householder who are not willing to life on alms.
3. Well, it's good to encourage the pursue of Nibbana, but there's also the practical discussion of monastic rules. It's good to have more people in the conversation rather than just one's own teacher. If some community says ebooks, etc are not considered stealing when downloaded for free outside of legal means, and another says even software can be stolen, and it's within pārajika 2. Then how? One is considered a monk there and not a monk in another place? Vinaya is more of a community standards thing, and it's good to have some discussion on new things which comes out.
The are rules and standards how and with whom, when, and under which circumstances the Vinaya should/could be taken as object of investigation, topic.
Let me just paste some of the good questions I got from the google link and I find it good questions to ask the public.
Bhantes kamma...

Monastics who understand science.
Good, no requirment at all, as required to let go of old believes.
The monastic supports mask-wearing, vaccination and other measures to cutb the spread of Covid-19.
Monks are not allowed to ask things for householder. Monks are not allowed to hint that they are given treadments. Monks teach what really heals, as those things help sometimes, sometimes not. And they are not allowed to treat householder, and give medicine, aside of exeptions.
The monastic shows respect for their civil responsibilities e.g. voting.
One who has left hime has no sivil responsible, but acts as a thief on both sides, when doing so.
Monastics who incorporate other content (philosophy, education, science) into dharma teachings
There are stipendiars for lay people. Using the faith of the land to give into the world is corruption.
Monastics who speaks poorly of/questioning LGBT people
They follow the Buddha and avoid improper association. One, if not laying down, still in test phase, hinder even to ordain.
Monastics keeping a pet
Compassionless thieves.
Monastics who smoke.
It's explicite and broad allowed, yet what, and for what purpose.
Monastics who quote conspiracy theories.
If Bhante goes on, he should know his caught by Maras host, a long time conspiracy undertaking.
Monastics Tapping / scrolling on a smartphone in public
What for does a monk needs a phone on walk?
Drinking water standing up (note there's no vinaya rule that says must sit to drink, although it's a Korwat in Thailand)
Not everywhere are sits.
Monastics refusing offerings that are in line with vinaya because of dietary preference
While surely annoying, a monks freedom to take or refuse.
Monastics working out for health
Thats the trainings purpose, by body, speech and mind.
If you say everything is covered by the Dhamma-Vinaya, what's your answer to the list above? I would just put it as inspiring or not inspiring, instead of monastics are allowed or not allowed to do such and such so that there's no pressure for monastics to have to conform. It's really up to people once we got the data.
At proper place, if needing texts, to get the point, sure. Bhante is welcome here. As all other Venerables, and there are proper areas.
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by santa100 »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:08 am One thing that lowers my respect for a bhikkhu is them not saying "I don't know" when they actually don't know.
Too often I see bhikkhus try to make up an answer or waffle or prevaricate, instead of honestly saying they do not know the answer.
There's no shame in not knowing everything.
That's the problem with monkhood, isn't it! Some join the Order to destroy their Ego, but others join to perpetuate it.
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by Johann »

santa100 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:16 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:08 am One thing that lowers my respect for a bhikkhu is them not saying "I don't know" when they actually don't know.
Too often I see bhikkhus try to make up an answer or waffle or prevaricate, instead of honestly saying they do not know the answer.
There's no shame in not knowing everything.
That's the problem with monkhood, isn't it! Some join the Order to destroy their Ego, but some do to perpetuate it.
It's of course much more pleasing for all in a Buddhaparisa, where people seek refuge instead of equal, good householder.

Since yours got SC (where all can stay homies and celebrate "equal role games) what's the need of all that burdens... some like to serve, others to be served.
There's no shame in not knowing everything.
As maybe at least knowing literary Monks: how did monks usually act at the Buddhas time, when not sure what to answer? "I don't know?"

No need to answer.

Not to imagine that any monk could make a required living without trade in your sphere, really not, since even giving is fare off, it not seeing rewards right here.
Last edited by Johann on Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What behaviour do you find inspiring or uninspiring in monastics?

Post by santa100 »

Johann wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:27 pm
santa100 wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 4:16 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote: Sat Dec 10, 2022 2:08 am One thing that lowers my respect for a bhikkhu is them not saying "I don't know" when they actually don't know.
Too often I see bhikkhus try to make up an answer or waffle or prevaricate, instead of honestly saying they do not know the answer.
There's no shame in not knowing everything.
That's the problem with monkhood, isn't it! Some join the Order to destroy their Ego, but some do to perpetuate it.
It's of course much more pleasing for all in a Buddhaparisa, where people seek refuge instead of equal, good householder.

Since yours got SC (where all can stay homies and celebrate "equal role games) what's the need of all that burdens... some like to serve, others to be served.
There's no shame in not knowing everything.
As maybe at least knowing literary Monks: how did monks usually act at the Buddhas time, when not sure what to answer? "I don't know?"

No need to answer.

Not to imagine that any monk could make a required living without trade in your sphere, really not, since even giving is fare off, it not seeing rewards right here.
Sorry, but despite the voluminous posts you have contributed on this forum, we still know nothing about you, what nationality, and whether you are a monk or not, so that we can address you with the proper title. Your tone certainly seems like you're a monk, but you have never confirmed nor deny your status???
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