Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by SarathW »

Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code
Indonesia’s parliament approved a criminal code on Tuesday that bans sex outside marriage with a punishment of up to one year in jail, part of a raft of legal changes that critics say undermine civil liberties in the world’s third-largest democracy.

The new code, which will apply to Indonesians and foreigners alike, will also prohibit cohabitation between unmarried couples. It was passed with support from all political parties and despite warnings from business groups that it could scare away tourists and harm investment.

However, the code will not come into effect for three years to allow for implementing regulations to be drafted.

Currently, Indonesia bans adultery but not premarital sex.

The laws also include bans on black magic, insulting the president or state institutions, spreading views counter to state ideology, and staging protests without notification.
https://www.dailymirror.lk/breaking_new ... 108-249928

It appears this is a legalisation of religious beliefs.
This is going beyond the Buddhist third precepts.
If you are a Theravada Buddhist live or travel in Indonesia be aware of this.
The Criminal Investigation Department has discovered further evidence on a sizable human trafficking ring that ‘auctions’ Sri Lankan women who have been sent to Oman under the pretense of finding employment there.


Issues concerning the terrible plight of Sri Lankan female domestic employees in Oman were reported to the CID by the Foreign Affairs Ministry in Sri Lanka, according to SSP W.M. Samarakoon Banda, the Director of Human Trafficking Human Smuggling and Maritime Crimes of CID.
https://www.dailymirror.lk/opinion/Mode ... 231-249206

Perhaps this has to be considered in light of this article as well.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by confusedlayman »

I think xxx law is good. But insult of president or state law is unacceptable. This shows downfall of indonesia started similar to sri lanka or pakistan..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
Meggo
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 2:42 pm

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by Meggo »

You are very confused layman if you think this law is good.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by Ceisiwr »

It’s a ridiculous law. My parents have been together for 40 years and they aren’t married. Why do they deserve to be thrown in prison for a year, if they lived there? In terms of Dhamma, it’s not immoral for laypeople to have sex outside of marriage. The Buddha didn’t think marriage was a holy sacrament, unlike other religions.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by confusedlayman »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:00 pm It’s a ridiculous law. My parents have been together for 40 years and they aren’t married. Why do they deserve to be thrown in prison for a year, if they lived there? In terms of Dhamma, it’s not immoral for laypeople to have sex outside of marriage. The Buddha didn’t think marriage was a holy sacrament, unlike other religions.
What are you blabbering? Give sutta reference... marrage ceremony is not important but if two people wa t to be together its fine without marrage if they are true to each other.. in your country it may be possible but in indoneasia who knows how many are misusing this live in relationship without wanting to start a family..
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
confusedlayman
Posts: 6231
Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:16 am
Location: Human Realm (as of now)

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by confusedlayman »

Meggo wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 4:57 pm You are very confused layman if you think this law is good.
Mara, i find you! Please dont take control of Meggo and delude me
I may be slow learner but im at least learning...
User avatar
Coëmgenu
Posts: 8150
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:55 pm
Location: Whitby, Canada

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by Coëmgenu »

confusedlayman wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 7:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 6:00 pm It’s a ridiculous law. My parents have been together for 40 years and they aren’t married. Why do they deserve to be thrown in prison for a year, if they lived there? In terms of Dhamma, it’s not immoral for laypeople to have sex outside of marriage. The Buddha didn’t think marriage was a holy sacrament, unlike other religions.
What are you blabbering?
Look in the mirror, you poor confused man, seeing Māra everywhere but within.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by dharmacorps »

What a silly law. Undoubtedly people eventually won't put up with it at some point.
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by SarathW »

A concerned new member sent me the following private message.
Where did Buddha teach to have sex outside of marriage? Why would a practicing Buddhist have sex outside of marriage? Are you Mara?
In Buddhism, there is no requirement to get married before sex.
There are some restrictions, however.
Buddhist teaching does not stop the consensus sex between certain adults.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Cashews
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:42 am

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by Cashews »

SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:12 pm In Buddhism, there is no requirement to get married before sex.
DN 31
"In five ways, young householder, the parents thus ministered to as the East by their children, show their compassion:

(i) they restrain them from evil,
(ii) they encourage them to do good,
(iv) they arrange a suitable marriage...
Commentary

Māturakkhitātiādīsu yaṃ pitari naṭṭhe vā mate vā ghāsacchādanādīhi paṭijaggamānā, vayapattaṃ kulaghare dassāmīti mātā rakkhati, ayaṃ māturakkhitā nāma. Etenupāyena piturakkhitādayopi veditabbā. Sabhāgakulāni pana kucchigatesupi gabbhesu katikaṃ karonti – ‘‘sace mayhaṃ putto hoti, tuyhaṃ dhītā, aññattha gantuṃ na labhissati, mayhaṃ puttasseva hotū’’ti. Evaṃ gabbhepi pariggahitā sassāmikā nāma. ‘‘Yo itthannāmaṃ itthiṃ gacchati, tassa ettako daṇḍo’’ti evaṃ gāmaṃ vā gehaṃ vā vīthiṃ vā uddissa ṭhapitadaṇḍā, pana saparidaṇḍā nāma. Antamaso mālāguṇaparikkhittāpīti yā sabbantimena paricchedena, ‘‘esā me bhariyā bhavissatī’’ti saññāya tassā upari kenaci mālāguṇaṃ khipantena mālāguṇamattenāpi parikkhittā hoti.

In the case where the father is gone, or the mother provides support such as food and clothing, the mother guards [her] thinking "I will give [her] to a good family when she comes of age." This is called "protected by the mother". By the same means "protected by the father", etc., should be understood.

When families come together and, even when the fetuses have just reached the womb, make an agreement - "If I have a son and you a daughter, let there be no getting to go to another; let her be for my son." Even in the case of a fetus that is protected thus, it is called "having a husband".

"Whoever goes to a woman of such and such a name, such a penalty is for him." Thus, a penalty is established by a village or a house, or a street; this is called "as entail a penalty."

"Even to the extent of those who are garlanded" - to the last extreme of all, with the perception that "This woman will be my wife", by tossing some garland over her head, there is "those that are garlanded".
AN 4.55
Then Nakula's father & Nakula's mother went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As they were sitting there, Nakula's father said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since Nakula's mother as a young girl was brought to me [to be my wife] when I was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to her even in mind, much less in body. We want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come."

And Nakula's mother said to the Blessed One: "Lord, ever since I as a young girl was brought to Nakula's father [to be his wife] when he was just a young boy, I am not conscious of being unfaithful to him even in mind, much less in body. We want to see one another not only in the present life but also in the life to come."
SarathW wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:12 pm Buddhist teaching does not stop the consensus sex between certain adults.
Buddhist teaching does not stop the consensus sex between certain non-Buddhist adults with wrong-view.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cashews wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:36 pm
And kings had concubines, which the Buddha accepted and never criticised.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Cashews
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:42 am

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by Cashews »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:42 pm And kings had concubines, which the Buddha accepted and never criticised.
Where? Please quote? Regardless, is this concubine use a common practice today? Sounds like sex slavery.
Mostly concubines served to satisfy sexual pleasure since any children that resulted from a mistress was considered illegitimate, and unless allowed by their father, had no rights of inheritance. The rich and the ruling class almost exclusively practiced concubinage. It was popular all across Asia.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cashews wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:43 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:42 pm And kings had concubines, which the Buddha accepted and never criticised.
Where? Please quote? Regardless, is this concubine use a common practice today?
I’d have to look it up. Is arranged marriage common practice in the west today? Seems the Buddha was advising people how to best live in their culture, so as to minimise the chances of creating unwholesome kamma rather than getting hung up on ceremonies.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Cashews
Posts: 30
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2022 3:42 am

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by Cashews »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:47 pm I’d have to look it up. Is arranged marriage common practice in the west today? Seems the Buddha was advising people how to best live in their culture, so as to minimise the chances of creating unwholesome kamma rather than getting hung up on ceremonies.
The Buddha was not from the West nor from the current sexual liberal culture. Unlike the current corporate based desire generating sexual liberal culture, the Buddha was established in harm-mitigating ethics.
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22383
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Indonesia bans sex outside marriage in new criminal code

Post by Ceisiwr »

Cashews wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:50 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 10:47 pm I’d have to look it up. Is arranged marriage common practice in the west today? Seems the Buddha was advising people how to best live in their culture, so as to minimise the chances of creating unwholesome kamma rather than getting hung up on ceremonies.
The Buddha was not from the West nor from the current sexual liberal culture. Unlike the current corporate based desire generating sexual liberal culture, the Buddha was established in harm-mitigating ethics.
Yes he was. That’s what I said. If someone has been with a partner faithfully for decades but they aren’t married, why would the Buddha criticise them for living in an unwholesome way?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Post Reply