Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

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frank k
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Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

Post by Johann »

If one follows the Sublime Buddhas words, making some out, in or arround it, not in, and of it self, does already to wrong and common track, good householder. What's a physical body, group? What does a body?
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

Post by auto »

breath nimitta(what you know mentally) is relating to the body, as opposed to the mind.
https://www.bing.com/search?q=physical&form=ANNTH1&refig=b96c42d4aa2345e29f67f5249a0798cd wrote:phys·ic·al
[ˈfɪzɪk(ə)l]
ADJECTIVE
relating to the body as opposed to the mind:
"a range of physical and mental challenges"
in contrast, an object what you know originally through the senses, the concept of it, is applied to the sense faculty. If you want to know what the water is through the smell faculty then apply the concept of water to that faculty.
I suspect that is the possible reason why jhana is done before the development of the mindfulness of breathing, per anapanasati sutta: You get rid of the object what relates to the sense base and then move to the breath what relates to the body.

and a bit different take, the kaya is in the internal sense base, when doing anapanasati. It's not related with the regular untrained faculties. Whether you call kaya physical or something else won't help you much anyway, you could call it your moms left elbow if want, since it too is existing for real.
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

Post by Johann »

"Good withdrawn from sensuality", which includes the common sensed already, comes before the steps (of anapana, as a means of the path). How ever, it (anapana) at a gross level, might help toward "leaving world" (Jhana) and access right pamojja. So generally merely pointless to do much around, in and out of kaya, as nama-rupa, or let one say "sak-kaya" is quite very fast.
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

Post by auto »

vimuttimagga pdf143 wrote: Q. what is access-meditation?
A. It means that the man follows the object unimpeded by his inclinations. Thus he overcomes the hindrances.
But he does not practice initial and sustained application of thought, joy, bliss, unification of mind and the five faculties of faith and so forth. Thought he gains mediation-strenght, diverse trends of thought occur yet. This is called access-meditation.
overcomes hindrances is part of access-concentration. When hindrances are overcomed, it is fixed meditation.
Jhana,
Interesting is what it says about the object. It doesn't move it in. What does it mean?
wrote:This state acquires the power of mental progress. This is the power of application of thought, faith and the others.
This state does not move in the object. This is called fixed meditation, jhana.
another point of interest,
wrote:Fixed meditation, jhana, is like the mind entering the mandala
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Alex123
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

Post by Alex123 »

re: "Body of breath". What exactly is that? It doesn't make any sense unless it refers to the physical body. There is no such thing as breathing without the body. Breathing exists because there is air, nose, mouth, lungs, diaphragm, all the muscles responsible for respiration, the heart that is working, arteries, capillaries, etc etc.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:54 pm re: "Body of breath". What exactly is that? It doesn't make any sense unless it refers to the physical body. There is no such thing as breathing without the body. Breathing exists because there is air, nose, mouth, lungs, diaphragm, all the muscles responsible for respiration, the heart that is working, arteries, capillaries, etc etc.
Think of it like you would a body of water, or a student body.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:57 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:54 pm re: "Body of breath". What exactly is that? It doesn't make any sense unless it refers to the physical body. There is no such thing as breathing without the body. Breathing exists because there is air, nose, mouth, lungs, diaphragm, all the muscles responsible for respiration, the heart that is working, arteries, capillaries, etc etc.
Think of it like you would a body of water, or a student body.
The breath doesn't exist unless there is a living breathing body.

Kaya, especially in kayasatipatthana - ALWAYS refers to the physical body. Never to some abstract concept that can't exist without concrete form.
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

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Alex123 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:08 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:57 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:54 pm re: "Body of breath". What exactly is that? It doesn't make any sense unless it refers to the physical body. There is no such thing as breathing without the body. Breathing exists because there is air, nose, mouth, lungs, diaphragm, all the muscles responsible for respiration, the heart that is working, arteries, capillaries, etc etc.
Think of it like you would a body of water, or a student body.
The breath doesn't exist unless there is a living breathing body.

Kaya, especially in kayasatipatthana - ALWAYS refers to the physical body. Never to some abstract concept that can't exist without concrete form.
Kaya in kayasatipatthana is referring to the physical body, yes. Kaya itself though has a wider range in the suttas, as with English. Sometimes it includes consciousness and form, other times as referring to mentality and even metaphysical substances. The breath then can be said to be a body without violating any norms of language because body, as in English, can mean different things. It’s a perfectly normal way of speaking.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Alex123
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

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Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:05 pm Kaya in kayasatipatthana is referring to the physical body, yes. Kaya itself though has a wider range in the suttas, as with English. Sometimes it includes consciousness and form, other times as referring to mentality and even metaphysical substances. The breath then can be said to be a body without violating any norms of language because body, as in English, can mean different things. It’s a perfectly normal way of speaking.
The context is four satipatthanas in which kaya means only one thing. The body. If the context was different, and if it made sense in the context, then your point would be perfectly valid.

Why wouldn't pali compilers or the Buddha just say so in pali that "one is aware of the full breath"? Why go about it in such a confusing way?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

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Alex123 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:18 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:05 pm Kaya in kayasatipatthana is referring to the physical body, yes. Kaya itself though has a wider range in the suttas, as with English. Sometimes it includes consciousness and form, other times as referring to mentality and even metaphysical substances. The breath then can be said to be a body without violating any norms of language because body, as in English, can mean different things. It’s a perfectly normal way of speaking.
The context is four satipatthanas in which kaya means only one thing. The body. If the context was different, and if it made sense in the context, then your point would be perfectly valid.

Why wouldn't pali compilers or the Buddha just say so in pali that "one is aware of the full breath"? Why go about it in such a confusing way?
Well, they didn’t. They said to be aware of the body of breath, which is an aspect of the body (kayasatipatthana).
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

Post by Alex123 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:19 pm
Alex123 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:18 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:05 pm Kaya in kayasatipatthana is referring to the physical body, yes. Kaya itself though has a wider range in the suttas, as with English. Sometimes it includes consciousness and form, other times as referring to mentality and even metaphysical substances. The breath then can be said to be a body without violating any norms of language because body, as in English, can mean different things. It’s a perfectly normal way of speaking.
The context is four satipatthanas in which kaya means only one thing. The body. If the context was different, and if it made sense in the context, then your point would be perfectly valid.

Why wouldn't pali compilers or the Buddha just say so in pali that "one is aware of the full breath"? Why go about it in such a confusing way?
Well, they didn’t. They said to be aware of the body of breath, which is an aspect of the body (kayasatipatthana).
So it is kayasatipatthana which refers to the aspect of the body.

When it comes to percieving the entire breath, step 1 & 2 (in anapanasati) deal with it. If you are aware of length and the difference of length (long, short) then you have to by definition be aware of the middle portion of the breath, thus, the entire breath.
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

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Alex123 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:33 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 3:19 pm
Alex123 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 2:18 pm

The context is four satipatthanas in which kaya means only one thing. The body. If the context was different, and if it made sense in the context, then your point would be perfectly valid.

Why wouldn't pali compilers or the Buddha just say so in pali that "one is aware of the full breath"? Why go about it in such a confusing way?
Well, they didn’t. They said to be aware of the body of breath, which is an aspect of the body (kayasatipatthana).
So it is kayasatipatthana which refers to the aspect of the body.

When it comes to percieving the entire breath, step 1 & 2 (in anapanasati) deal with it. If you are aware of length and the difference of length (long, short) then you have to by definition be aware of the middle portion of the breath, thus, the entire breath.
Kāya-satipaṭṭhāna refers to a practice where you take an aspect of the body as a basis for meditation. That can be the elemental aspect of the body, the foulness aspect or the breath. In the case of mindfulness of breathing, one takes the breath (the body of breath, as the suttas say) as an aspect which one uses as a basis. On long & short, I think of mindfulness of breathing as being more different aspects of the same experience rather than being distinct stages one progresses through. One sits down, observes the breath and is aware of if it is long or short. At the same time they train to become aware of the whole breath, without any gaps, whilst at the same time calming the breath, being aware of the Jhāna factors arising or not and so on through the tetrads. For example, I think the last tetrad is right there with the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The same for the other tetrads. It's multifaceted.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

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Taken from Anapanasati (Mindfulness of Breathing) by Bhuddadasa Bhikku, starting on page 123:
The word “experiencing” as used in the lines quoted implies complete knowledge, something higher than the mere sampajana (Full Awareness) of Stages I and II. “Experiencing” means knowing everything completely, clearly, and in detail. The compound pañi-saü-vedī implies knowing clearly and completely the various phenomena in their natural sequence. It further implies knowing the “body,” that is, the breathing itself, as to its characteristics, its state of being, its causes and results, and so on. Since the word “body” refers here to the breathing, it follows that knowing fully means knowing the breathing as short or long, knowing the movement of the breathing, knowing the source of the breathing, namely the life-force, and knowing the result of breathing, namely the function of respiration, the necessary condition for the body and the whole physical aspect of life. To sum up, “experiencing the whole body” simply means knowing immediately everything related to the breathing. This knowledge culminates in knowledge of the impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non-selfhood of all these states and functions — a point that will be dealt with in the higher stages of the practice.

Now consider the phrase “the whole body.” To understand this we must first consider the word “body” (kàya). Kàya means literally “group.” As mentioned before, there are two kinds of kàya or “body,” the mental and the physical (nàma-kàya and rūpakàya). The mental body or group includes the feelings (vedanà), perceptions (sannà), mental conditionings (saïkhàra), and consciousness (vinnàna). Thus it covers a wide range; but in the present case the reference is to the various mental states that arise during concentration on breathing, such as zeal, gladness, mindfulness, full awareness and the like. All of these belong to the nàma-kàya, the mental body. The rūpa-kàya is the physical body made up of the four Primary Elements (mahàbhūta), Earth, Water, Fire, Air. But here it refers in particular to the breathing, which is closely related to the Primary Elements, being what maintains them and gives them value and purpose, as well as being the basis for the continued existence of the mental body. In short, the “body,” that is, the breathing, performs the function of kàya-saïkhàra, body-conditioner. It conditions the physical body, maintaining it as the basis for the continued existence of the mental body. A thoughtful person who has perceived the nature of the whole body, physical and mental, and seen how its two aspects are interrelated, can discover for himself the significance of the breathing and see it as worthy of special consideration. Hence it suffices to say that the monk “contemplates the body in the body”: out of the entire body, physical and mental, the meditator selects and watches one particular body, the breathing. Hence it is that ànàpànasati is called Foundation of Mindfulness Consisting in Contemplation of the Body (kàyànupassanàsatipaññhàna). The essence of this is natural and uninterrupted “contemplation of the body in the body,” which means knowing each inand out-breath.

Now consider the word “whole.” Though this word is used in connection with every kind of body, here it means simply that body which is the whole breathing or everything related to that body. Since the word “body” refers here to the breathing, the things to be known are all the things directly connected with that breathing. This means knowing the characteristics of the breathing and knowing what arises as a consequence of the breathing. Again, ànàpànasati in this third Stage is still primarily concerned with concentration; so the words “the whole body” have meaning mainly insofar as they are concerned with concentration developed through the breathing. We can specifically say, then, that “the whole body” means the entire breathing process. To experience the “whole body” is to experience the breathing thoroughly, in all respects.

As to how to “experience the whole body,” an easy way has been suggested. It consists in first analysing the breathing into three phases: beginning, middle, and end. The meditator must feel where the breath originates, how it moves, where it ends, on both inand out-breath. In the case of breathing in, the breath can be said to originate at the nostrils or some point in that region where the meditator feels the incoming air strike. Normally the incoming air is felt to strike at the tip of the nose, though a person: with prominent lips will feel it on the upper lip, which is then to be taken as the point of origin. The “middle” of the breath is the interval between the point of origin and the end of the breath. So we must consider next the point where the breathing ends. We need not be too seriously concerned as to just where the in-breath ends and turns about. It suffices to take as the end-point a feeling that appears more clearly than others and is more convenient to concentrate on than others. When breathing in to the maximum, the meditator should feel the end of the throbbing movement and pressure of the breathing. It is generally held that the in-breath ends at the navel.

It should be borne in mind that we are here concerned with the practice of meditation and not with anatomy or physiology. The exact point at which the breath ends is unimportant; what is important is to establish mindfulness on the breathing and to experience it. So the navel may as well be taken as the end-point of the in-breath. It suffices for our purposes. We may say, then, that the in-breath has as its point of origin the tip of the nose, as its end-point the navel, and as its middle the whole interval between these two. For the out-breath it is just the other way about — the point of origin is the navel and the end-point the tip of the nose.

Experiencing the whole body (breathing) is possible when the meditator is aware of the beginning, middle, and end of the entire inand out-breathing, not letting any part of the process pass unobserved. In practice, however, the mind is very fickle, very easily distracted. Even during a short period of breathing in and out, if mindfulness is not thoroughly established, the mind is bound to leave the breathing object and wander on to other things. For instance, the mind may be well fixed on the breathing at the beginning of the in-breath, only to go astray in the middle of the breath and dwell on something quite different for a shorter or longer period.
Furthermore, Ledi Sayadaw states the following in his Manual of Mindfulness:
In the third stage, the attempt has to be made to experience the entire out-breath and in-breath—the beginning, middle, and end. (Page 15)

In the third stage, when the perception of the long and short out-breaths and in-breaths has been mastered, every breath occurring within the body must be experienced in its entirety, right from its starting point within the body through its middle to the point where it ends within the body, the extremities of the breath (start or end as the case may be) being at the tip of the nose and at the navel. (Page 15)
On the other hand, Thanissaro Bhikku seems to agree with step 3 referencing the entire body due to context clues. He states the following note in regards to step 3 in his translation of the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118):
The commentaries insist that “body” here means the full length of the breath, but this is unlikely in this context, for three reasons: (a) The first two steps already require being aware of the entire length of the breath. Otherwise, the meditator wouldn’t know if a breath was short or long. (b) The fourth step—without further explanation—refers to the breath as “bodily fabrication.” If the Buddha were using two different terms to refer to the breath—“body” and “bodily fabrication”—in such close proximity, he would have been careful to signal that he was redefining his terms (as he does below, when explaining that the first four steps in breath meditation correspond to the practice of focusing on the body in and of itself as a frame of reference). But he doesn’t. (c) As AN 10:20 indicates, the fourth step refers to bringing the mind to the fourth jhāna, a state in which in-and-out breathing grows still (SN 36:11; AN 10:72) and the body is filled with pure, bright awareness (after awareness has been extended to be sensitive to the entire body beginning with the first jhāna (DN 2; MN 119)). Because the fourth step focuses on the stilling of the breath, there has to be a step in which the awareness is extended to fill the entire body. That would be this step.
Clearly this debate will not get settled any time soon. There are camps for both.
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Re: Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

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suspence772 wrote: Sun Jan 22, 2023 3:53 pm

Clearly this debate will not get settled any time soon. There are camps for both.
It's an old debate. For Sarvāstivāda-Vaibhāṣika and, I believe, for their Sautrāntika offshoot it meant being aware of the breath throughout the whole body, even experiencing breathing through one's pores in the skin. For Theravāda, it means the whole body of breath. Even when we get to the suttas and their parallels there are differences. The Theravādin suttas and some Sarvāstivāda sutras talk about experiencing the "whole body" yet some Sarvāstivādin sutras talk instead about experiencing "all the breaths". When we look at the one of the Mahāsāṃghika sutras, it also talks about being aware of all breaths, but is also very different again in general from the others.
The Bhagavān told him, “Rāhula, suppose there is a bhikṣu who is happy being alone in quietude. In a secluded place, he corrects his body, corrects his intention, and sits cross-legged. Without any other thoughts, he fastens his mind on the tip of his nose. [1] When there is a long breath out, he is also aware of the long breath. [2] When there is a long breath in, he is also aware of the long breath. [3] When there is a short breath out, he is also aware of the short breath. [4] When there is a short breath in, he is also aware of the short breath. [5] When there is a cold breath out, he is also aware of the cold breath. [6] When there is a cold breath in, he is also aware of the cold breath. [7] When there is a warm breath out, he is also aware of the warm breath. [8] When there is a warm breath in, he is also aware of the warm breath. [9] He completely contemplates the in-breaths and out-breaths of the body, aware of them all. [10] When there is breathing, he also is aware of its presence. [11] When there is no breathing, he is also aware of its absence. [12] If there is an out-breath conditioned by the mind, he is aware that the out-breath was conditioned by the mind. [13] If there is an in-breath conditioned by the mind, he is aware that the in-breath was conditioned by the mind. Thusly, Rāhula, one is able to cultivate the practice of Ānāpānasmṛti, to eliminate every notion of worry and sorrow, obtain the great fruit, and taste the sweet nectar of immortality.”
https://suttacentral.net/ea17.1/en/pier ... ight=false
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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