Using common sense and reasoning to conclude step 3 of breath meditation is talking about the physical body

[Ceisiwr]

I never said Buddhaghosa wrote it and my use of he was probably sparked by the translator (Peter Harvey... who I suppose is a dude). My faux pas.

Well then I apologise for my misreading.

Having said that... if this is an example of how commentary muddies the waters then I'm glad I don't dip my toe. The jhana formula presented by the Buddha is very precise and inserting sukha into fourth jhana was not done by the Buddha and I'll take his word for it... the Buddha was the perfect & peerless teacher... at least understand this ( patronising somebody is never very productive).

The commentaries are simply using sukha in the more casual way, as the Buddha did himself on occasion. I do of course think the Blessed One was peerless and perfect in wisdom etc, although I think he did have some wordly flaws (this would be heresy to Theravāda, btw). Teaching those monks foulness of the body was a mistake, and so an imperfection. The commentaries have a gloss on this, which absolves him of any error, but I struggle to accept it. The commentators however and Ācariya Buddhaghosa would agree he was perfect. It wasn't my intention to be patronising, but in your previous posts you believed Ācariya Buddhaghosa said or wrote x, y & z when he never did. He was an editor and a translator, possibly working as part of a team, who only gives his own views on a few occasions.

I still don't see how this refutes that it is the physical body being discussed in the jhanas... was it meant to?

It was to show that rapture, pleasure and equanimity are all mental in the Jhānas, always, but they can have physical effects. Leading up to and after emerging, or when in access, there are said physical experiences.

[frank k]

hearing in jhāna , samādhi
You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas, including 'imperturbable' version of 4th jhāna (j4 āneñja). First three jhāna are 'perturbable' MN 66.
You can not hear sounds in imperturbable formless (a-rūpa) attainments.
* Unqualified 'āneñja ' (imperturbable) is usually referring to these formless attainment's, and not 4th jhāna.
* These formless states are the 'santi vihara' peaceful meditations referred to in DN 16 where Buddha and his teacher can not hear sounds.
Tv Ab Kv 18.8 claims that one can not hear sounds in the four jhānas. First of all, this text is relatively new and not everyone agrees it's canonical. Second, they use fallacious and circular reasoning.

The attainment where the Buddha can't hear sounds is an arupa attainment, not the four jhanas.

it's just, like your opinion, man. The sutta doesn't name it. Ekkagata factor alone implays, that rupa jhanas go like in this sutta, as singular experience, mind data only.
...

It's not an opinion, it's a fact based on the suttas.
These are all the sutta references where hearing and not hearing in samādhi occur.
The ones where no hearing occurs, are imperturbable samādhi or peaceful dwelling, never four jhānas stated.
Suttas where hearing occur, many happen with jhāna, including Buddha getting his jhāna interrupted by sound.


https://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/sound/index.html

some of them:
You can hear sounds in the 4 jhānas. Which samādhis are silent?
There are two types of imperturbable (anenja) samadhi
Conclusion: you can hear sounds in the 4 jhanas, loud sounds are thorns
Relevant sutta references
AN 5.26 First jhāna possible while hearing aand thinking during live dhamma talk
AN 5.113 sammā-samādhi-suttaṃ (right concentration)
AN 5.139 explicit in withstanding 5 senses while in samādhi
AN 5.151 listen to Dhamma with ekagga-citta
AN 5.209 chanting suttas is samādhi
AN 6.55 imperturbable (āneñja) outside of sitting jhāna
AN 6.56 Phagguna attained arahantship with hearing, V&V
AN 9.37 mind divorced from 5 body faculties are 3 formless attainments, NOT 4 jhanas!
AN 10.72 sound is a thorn to all four jhanas
DN 16 Āḷāra Kālāma doesn’t hear 500 carts pass by while in santa vihara (peaceful dwelling) awake (jagara), percipient (saññi)
DN 16 Buddha can’t hear in thunderstorm while in santa vihara (peaceful dwelling/meditation) awake (jagara), percipient (saññi)
DN 21 Buddha hears carriage moving and is knocked out of ‘samadhi’
KN Ud 3.3 500 monks and buddha in imperturbable samadhi can’t hear
MN 43 mind divorced from 5 body faculties can know what? (3 formless attainements, not 4 jhanas!)
MN 125 simile of war elephant in imperturbable 4th jhana withstanding onslaught from 5 sense doors
SN 46.38 hearing & thinking the dhamma while in jhāna samādhi
Vinaya Mv.II.3.4 “We listen with an ek’agga mind, an unscattered...
Vinaya Parjika 4.1 Moggallana hears sound in imperturbable samadhi
Vimt. Arahant Upatissa, On sound and speech in jhāna
Hearing and thinking while in Jhāna strongly implied
MN 70 hearing, memorizing, thinking dhamma for arahantship
AN 9.41 Buddha practicing impure first jhāna
Can you hear sound in imperturbable samādhi?
Moggallana hears loud elephant noises in imperturbable samādhi
DN 16 Buddha can’t hear in thunderstorm
presumably Buddha in formless samadhi
Āḷāra Kālāma doesn’t hear 500 carts pass by, presumably formless samadhi

[Alex123]

In the Sutta Pitaka there is Patisambhidamagga (early commentary?).

Here is what it says about it in the section dealing with breath meditation:

III,239. How is it that (5) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with the whole body [of breaths]
(6) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with the whole body [of breaths]'?

[Analysis of the Object of Contemplation]

240. Body: there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body.
What is the mental body? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention, and mentality are the mental body, and also what are called cognizance formations: these are the mental body.

What is the material body? The four great entities and the materiality derived by clinging from the four great entities, in-breath and out-breath and the sign for anchoring [mindfulness], and also what are called body
formations: this is the material body.
-Bhikkhu Nanamoli translation.

Despite all the attempts to add [of breaths] to each mention of the body, the physical body is included. In and out breaths are classified under the material body.

The mental body is more appropriate for citta-sankhara, which is purely mental.

[Ceisiwr]

In the Sutta Pitaka there is Patisambhidamagga (early commentary?).

Here is what it says about it in the section dealing with breath meditation:

III,239. How is it that (5) he trains thus 'I shall breathe in acquainted with the whole body [of breaths]
(6) he trains thus 'I shall breathe out acquainted with the whole body [of breaths]'?

[Analysis of the Object of Contemplation]

240. Body: there are two bodies: the mental body and the material body.
What is the mental body? Feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention, and mentality are the mental body, and also what are called cognizance formations: these are the mental body.

What is the material body? The four great entities and the materiality derived by clinging from the four great entities, in-breath and out-breath and the sign for anchoring [mindfulness], and also what are called body
formations: this is the material body.
-Bhikkhu Nanamoli translation.

Despite all the attempts to add [of breaths] to each mention of the body, the physical body is included. In and out breaths are classified under the material body.

The mental body is more appropriate for citta-sankhara, which is purely mental.

You aren’t totally unaware of the breath inside and out in the Visuddhimagga.

[Alex123]

You aren’t totally unaware of the breath inside and out in the Visuddhimagga.

Good.