How can i establish sati on parimukham?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
BrokenBones
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:40 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:34 pm I'm sure there's a reality in which your question is relevant and makes sense 🤔
From your link
With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial.
Sounds wonderful... but we're talking about parimukham and noses here i.e where does concentration at the nose become relevant to developing metta?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:07 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:40 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:34 pm I'm sure there's a reality in which your question is relevant and makes sense 🤔
From your link
With the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and dejection, I enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.

“Then, brahmin, when I am in such a state, if I walk back and forth, on that occasion my walking back and forth is celestial.
Sounds wonderful... but we're talking about parimukham and noses here i.e where does concentration at the nose become relevant to developing metta?
It sounds lovely, but how likely is it? One’s mind and body are perfectly still in the 4th Jhana and one is either not breathing or it’s so fine it can’t be detected, so how is that compatible with walking around the place? I don’t think parimukham means at the tip of the nose. I think it means placing mindfulness on the meditation in question. The tip of the nose is a meditation technique taught by different meditation masters, from Theravadins to the forest dwelling meditators of Sarvastivada and Sutrantika. Similar to how Ven. Vimalaramsi’s teaches in the form of the 6 Rs.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
BrokenBones
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:17 am
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 12:07 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:40 pm

From your link

Sounds wonderful... but we're talking about parimukham and noses here i.e where does concentration at the nose become relevant to developing metta?
It sounds lovely, but how likely is it? One’s mind and body are perfectly still in the 4th Jhana and one is either not breathing or it’s so fine it can’t be detected, so how is that compatible with walking around the place? I don’t think parimukham means at the tip of the nose. I think it means placing mindfulness on the meditation in question. The tip of the nose is a meditation technique taught by different meditation masters, from Theravadins to the forest dwelling meditators of Sarvastivada and Sutrantika. Similar to how Ven. Vimalaramsi’s teaches in the form of the 6 Rs.
See 😀 we agree 👍

As for the rest of it, you're trying to rehash an argument that is irrelevant to the thread. I'm sure there are other threads that need padding out... or start a new one... there's probably not many threads on jhanas 🤣
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frank k
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by frank k »

kyj2002 wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:16 pm ...
This is my own interpretation of why parimukham means nostrils
I've only just met the dhamma and I don't know it well
If you are going to reply here, please share your methods and skills rather than criticism or your own interpretation
Sorry for my bad english

A sutta based approach to breath meditation
https://lucid24.org/tped/g/goldcraft/index.html#16
contains copious links to suttas that inform the interpretation
table of contents:

Goldcraft 16 Ānā-pāna-s-sati: breath meditation
            Goldcraft 16.000 overview and features
                Goldcraft 16.000.1 cutting off vitakka/thoughts
                Goldcraft 16.000.2 ambrosia, peaceful, sublime dwelling
                Goldcraft 16.000.3 Noble 👑, Brahma, pleasurable dwelling
                Goldcraft 16.000.4 Even last breath at death is known!
                Goldcraft 16.000.5 How does 16aps differ from other meditation methods?
            Goldcraft 16.0 🔬prelude to 16 steps
                Goldcraft 16.0.3 🧘 bending into a cross leg posture
                Goldcraft 16.0.4 🏃📐 straightening the body
                Goldcraft 16.0.5 🌬️😤 pari-mukhaṃ: what does ‘in front’ mean?
                Goldcraft 16.0.6 🌬🐘 Always ‘mindful’ of what?
            Goldcraft 16.1 🔬step 1: breathing long
            Goldcraft 16.2 🔬step 2: breathing short
            Goldcraft 16.3 🔬step 3: sensitive to entire body
                Goldcraft 16.3.3 409 CE Dhyāna Samādhi Sutra
                Goldcraft 16.3.5 Buddha says kāya = physical body in 16aps context
            Goldcraft 16.4 🔬step 4: pacify bodily co-activities
                Goldcraft 16.4.5 Buddha glosses kāya-sankhāra
            Goldcraft 16.5 🔬step 5: sensitive to mental joy
            Goldcraft 16.6 🔬step 6: sensitive to physical pleasure
            Goldcraft 16.7 🔬step 7: sensitive to co-activities of mental experience
            Goldcraft 16.8 🔬step 8: pacifying co-activities of mental experience
            Goldcraft 16.9 🔬step 9: sensitive to 'mind'
            Goldcraft 16.10 🔬step 10: produce joy in the 'mind'
            Goldcraft 16.11 🔬step 11: make the 'mind' undistractible and lucid
            Goldcraft 16.12 🔬step 12: liberate the 'mind'
            Goldcraft 16.13 🔬step 13: continuously see impermanence
            Goldcraft 16.14 🔬step 14: continuously see dispassion
            Goldcraft 16.15 🔬step 15: continuously see cessation
            Goldcraft 16.16 🔬step 16: continuously see relinquishment [into nirvana]
            Goldcraft 16.100 misc. on 16aps
                Goldcraft 16.100.1 pāḷi suttas dealing with 16aps
                Goldcraft 16.100.2 pāḷi audio dealing with 16aps
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages
auto
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by auto »

Pali originally doesn't contain the word dhamma in those places, i know, it is why you put it into parentheses.
https://lucid24.org/tped/g/goldcraft/index.html#16 wrote:[0.5] 🌬️😤 pari-mukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā.
[0.5] 🌬️😤 They establish remembrance [of ☸Dharma] in front [, making Dharma their main focus].
what you mean by that Dhamma,
wrote:1a. ☸Dhamma = The Buddha's Teaching that leads to nirvana.
wrote:..the Buddha’s definition of sati, “mindfulness” means memorize that instruction, you recite it out loud frequently until the memory is clear, then mentally think about it in verbal linguistic form. Every small step of the way the memory/sati interacts with thinking verbally and reciting out loud.
wrote:First jhāna happens when you replace bad thoughts with skillful Dharma vitakka thoughts like these 16 steps.
the idea according to frankk is to parimukha the skillful Dhamma(buddhas instruction) like this,
wrote:They train themselves, [thinking]: 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire [physical] body.’
how do you think mentally in verbal linguistic form?
wrote:Dīghaṃ vā assasanto ‘dīghaṃ assasāmī’ti pajānāti,
(1a) When breathing in long, he discerns that: 'I am breathing in long.'
dīghaṃ vā passasanto ‘dīghaṃ passasāmī’ti pajānāti;
(1b) When breathing out long, he discerns that: 'I am breathing out long.'
* The main point of the first two steps, is to make sure you are aware of the physical process of breathing with enough care and attention such that you can discern whether the breath is relatively long or short, as opposed to the mind wandering in distracted thoughts and completely losing track of the breath.
So, above frankk says about being aware of the physical process of breathing in a way it replaces bad thoughts.

and that is innovative only to Sutta followers? that this function is unknown, redefined by abhidhamma? that when you are attentive on some object enough to be able to know its features, then the discursive thinking doesn't occur unless you are careless.
https://translate.google.com/?sl=en&tl=et&text=discursive&op=translate wrote: Adjective
1
digressing from subject to subject.
makes me think what then you meant by the frozen stupor? lets say you are aware of the breath deep enough to know its details whether it is short or long, while at it then how do you initiate the bodily movement unless you change the object of your mind for a moment? sounds like what you describe qualifies as a frozen stupor.
auto
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by auto »

https://lucid24.org/tped/g/goldcraft/index.html#16 wrote:Q: but how can you feel the ‘breath’ in all parts of the body, aside from wind on your nostrils and lungs inflating?
A: As a beginner, you can’t. But when you’ve put in enough hours, years usually, the body transforms, you accumulate enough 🌟PIE , intrinsic subtle energy, the jhāna force, and equation‍ gets strong enough, you can clearly feel currents of energy traveling around interconnected loops overlaying the physical body, inside, and eventually the radius grows outside the body. The energy is felt as heat, electricity, hydraulic sense, vibrations.
earlier you described being carefully aware about breath, seem dramatic change if to read the above.

btw the subtle breath originally doesn't travel in the body. It is in the sky, mental space, it is noticed to be there and then concentration method is used to force it(it condenses into body) and then when to use your seeing then the seeing becomes luminous or illuminate the entire space. Subtle breath is in front of the cavity/psychic center, through what it is ready to be brought in.. subtle breath is mindfulness(concomitant what accompany the mind) it acts as a foundation for the concentration.

It seem based on visuddhimagga it is the mindfulness what is perfect and well developed, not the breath(physical) itself.
visuddhimagga wrote:“Whose mindfulness of breathing in
And out is perfect, well developed,
And gradually brought to growth
According as the Buddha taught,
’Tis he illuminates the world
Just like the full moon free from cloud”55
https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/verseload.php?verse=172 wrote: ..
Other bhikkhus noticed some rubbish piling up in the compound and they asked Sammajjana why he was not sweeping as much as he used to, and he replied, "When I was not mindful, I was all the time sweeping; but now I am no longer unmindful." When the bhikkhus heard his reply they were sceptical; so they went to the Buddha and said, "Venerable Sir! Thera Sammajjana falsely claims himself to be an arahat; he is telling lies." To them the Buddha said, "Sammajjana has indeed attained arahatship; he is telling the truth."

Then the Buddha spoke in verse as follows:

Verse 172: He, who has been formerly unmindful, but is mindful later on, lights up the world with the light of Magga Insight as does the moon freed from clouds.
auto
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by auto »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:27 pm I've noticed that if the Buddha's words don't align with commentaries then they're just ignored or elaborate linguistics are introduced... see this thread.
If you not interested in becoming what is written in suttas(superpowers..), then yes few lines of corrupted gossiplines behind the tea with your fellows will make a day.
BrokenBones
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by BrokenBones »

auto wrote: Fri Dec 23, 2022 5:59 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 9:27 pm I've noticed that if the Buddha's words don't align with commentaries then they're just ignored or elaborate linguistics are introduced... see this thread.
If you not interested in becoming what is written in suttas(superpowers..), then yes few lines of corrupted gossiplines behind the tea with your fellows will make a day.
👂 come again.
skandha
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by skandha »

kyj2002 wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:16 pm In the case of the nose, in order for me to know everything that's going on in my nose, I have to keep my mind in my nose with out interval I believe that is why buddahgosa said to establish mindfulness in his nose.
in orignal sutta(mn148?? I dont know) Pari mukham satim upateva)
This is my own interpretation of why parimukham means nostrils
I've only just met the dhamma and I don't know it well
If you are going to reply here, please share your methods and skills rather than criticism or your own interpretation
Your interpretation is actually the correct interpretation according to the Theravada, not just Buddhagosa. It is very explicitly stated in the Vibhanga which is a canonical Theravada text and not just a commentary or manual (like Buddhagosa's Visudhimagga), to set up mindfulness at the tip of the nose or upper lip.
‘‘Parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā’’ti tattha katamā sati? Yā sati anussati paṭissati…pe… sammāsati – ayaṃ vuccati ‘‘sati’’. Ayaṃ sati upaṭṭhitā hoti supaṭṭhitā nāsikaggemukhanimitte vā. Tena vuccati ‘‘parimukhaṃ satiṃ upaṭṭhapetvā’’ti. (Abhidhamma - Vibhanga 2. Jhānavibhaṅgo - Mātikā - Par.537)
537. ‘Setting up mindfulness in front’ means: Therein what
is mindfulness? That which is mindfulness, constant mindful
ness, recollection, :P: right mindfulness. This is called mindful
ness. This mindfulness is set-up, well set-up at the tip of the nose
or at the centre of the upper lip. Therefore this is called ‘setting
up mindfulness in front’.
In terms of my own experience of how I practice mindfulness of breathing, I use the area of the tip of the nose and upper lip as a convenient anchor for attention to know the breath, since it is at the entrance of where the breath comes in and goes out. Most of the time I do not focus my sole attention on this area and I just rest my peripheral attention on it, just enough to know that I am breathing. While the mindfulness is peripherally at the tip of the nose, I would also contemplate other characteristics/themes like the length of the breath, the sensations on the whole body, rapture and pleasure etc., as mentioned in the Anapanasatisutta. For me the characteristic/theme that I often go to is this, "'I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence’; he trains thus: ‘I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence.'". The fact that this breath which is so fundamental to "my" existence is impermanent and ultimately beyond my control, even though I have some small control of how I breath. Though even this control is given to me, based on causes and conditions of how sankhara works. There are times where I prefer to not do any active contemplation, and just rest my awareness on the tip of the nose and the breath, because other faculties are less active and calmed. So yeah, different modes of practice but most of the time I still use the tip of the nose as an anchor for knowing the breath.
Last edited by skandha on Sat Dec 24, 2022 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
A true master of knowledge has passed beyond all that is known and become dispassionate towards all vedanās.
- Sn 529
RobertoAnces
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by RobertoAnces »

kyj2002 wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:16 pm
frank k wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 1:00 pm
kyj2002 wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 7:54 am I tried to fix the awareness on the upperlip as instructed by VSM
At first i thought sati was well established in the upper lip
But what I was really doing was tighten my upperlip
I don't know how to fix sati in a particular place at the body
Sorry for my bad english
Your root problem is you have to decide whether you trust VSM or the Buddha's meditation instructions.
They aren't the same.
If you trust VSM, then you're in for a world of problems, well documented and researched, exactly like you've described above and it's going to get worse.
Not just your upper lip tightening but your entire body, entire mind also tensing and going the opposite direction of the Buddha's jhāna.
Thanks for your comment here is my opnion
I think we spend a day with a lot of sensory contact, but it's rare to awareness of it, for example, that I'm sitting and typing right now, but the sense of contact that comes from the floor to my feet is forgotten, but when I send my mind to the soles of my feet, I recognize the touch feeling of the floor
In the case of the nose, in order for me to know everything that's going on in my nose, I have to keep my mind in my nose with out interval I believe that is why buddahgosa said to establish mindfulness in his nose.
in orignal sutta(mn148?? I dont know) Pari mukham satim upateva)
This is my own interpretation of why parimukham means nostrils
I've only just met the dhamma and I don't know it well
If you are going to reply here, please share your methods and skills rather than criticism or your own interpretation
Sorry for my bad english
My English is not good either, do you ask why you cannot perceive the sensations in your nose as clearly as in the soles of your feet or your hands?

If the question is that, the answer is that it is a part of your body that you are used to ignoring, or not "seeing". And the solution is patience and practice. You can breathe deeper or with more force, that will make the sensations more intense and easy to perceive and will get your mind used to feeling that part of your body.

When a blind person wants to learn to read braille, he needs to sensitize his fingertips to be able to notice the bumps on the paper, he has no choice but to practice until his mind refines the fineness with which it perceives sensations in that part of the body.
Why is braille so hard?
Similar to learning a second language as an adult, Braille can be more difficult to learn. Developing the ability to distinguish Braille via touch can take a very long time for a person to learn.
Another thing is sati, sati is remembering, that is, being attentive to something, be mindful, that your mind stays on that something and does not get lost, another thing is that you can see/feel/perceive it or not. You cannot be attentive to what you cannot see/feel/perceive.

Sati would be the blind being attentive to what he reads, sometimes we read without attention, mechanically and we don't even know what we read, and the other condition for the blind to be able to read is that he is able to clearly "feel" the paper.

Either for developing sati, or developing the ability to feel your nose/breath/whatever the answer is the same, patience and practice.

I don't know if I'm answering your question because I don't quite understand the question, I'm sorry
pegembara
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by pegembara »

First, know the purpose of this important first step of anchoring the mind. What you do must fit the purpose.
"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will develop mindfulness immersed in the body(eg anapanasati). We will pursue it, hand it the reins and take it as a basis, give it a grounding. We will steady it, consolidate it, and set about it properly.' That's how you should train yourselves."
"Just as if a person, catching six animals of different ranges, of different habitats, were to bind them with a strong rope. Catching a snake, he would bind it with a strong rope. Catching a crocodile... a bird... a dog... a hyena... a monkey, he would bind it with a strong rope. Binding them all with a strong rope, he would tether them to a strong post or stake.
"Then those six animals, of different ranges, of different habitats, would each pull toward its own range & habitat. The snake would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the anthill.' The crocodile would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the water.' The bird would pull, thinking, 'I'll fly up into the air.' The dog would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the village.' The hyena would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the charnel ground.' The monkey would pull, thinking, 'I'll go into the forest.' And when these six animals became internally exhausted, they would stand, sit, or lie down right there next to the post or stake. In the same way, when a monk whose mindfulness immersed in the body is developed & pursued, the eye does not pull toward pleasing forms, and unpleasing forms are not repellent. The ear does not pull toward pleasing sounds... The nose does not pull toward pleasing aromas... The tongue does not pull toward pleasing flavors... The body does not pull toward pleasing tactile sensations... The intellect does not pull toward pleasing ideas, and unpleasing ideas are not repellent. This, monks, is restraint.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... 5.206.than.

I don't know how to fix sati in a particular place at the body
With eyes closed, the 'body' can only the 'felt' through breathing sensations and for others pressure/weight through the buttocks.
Where do you feel the 'body'? That is where you fix your attention. Sati is to remind yourself to keep your attention on that place.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: How can i establish sati on parimukham?

Post by SarathW »

SarathW wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 11:29 pm
santa100 wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 5:20 pm
kyj2002 wrote: Thu Dec 22, 2022 4:16 pm Thanks for your comment here is my opnion
I think we spend a day with a lot of sensory contact, but it's rare to awareness of it, for example, that I'm sitting and typing right now, but the sense of contact that comes from the floor to my feet is forgotten, but when I send my mind to the soles of my feet, I recognize the touch feeling of the floor
In the case of the nose, in order for me to know everything that's going on in my nose, I have to keep my mind in my nose with out interval I believe that is why buddahgosa said to establish mindfulness in his nose.
in orignal sutta(mn148?? I dont know) Pari mukham satim upateva)
This is my own interpretation of why parimukham means nostrils
I've only just met the dhamma and I don't know it well
If you are going to reply here, please share your methods and skills rather than criticism or your own interpretation
Sorry for my bad english
In software engineering, there's a design concept called "program to interface", not to "implementation". Basically all that means is that the software will be quite limited in its intended function if it doesn't allow certain level of flexibility and abstraction in its API. Similarly for the Buddha's Teaching. His "design" follows that same engineering principle, ie. He never mandated the focus exclusively and only on a particular location, be it the upper lip, the nose, the front of the chest, etc... In other words, "establishing mindfulness to the fore" is the "interface", while "focusing on one's nostril, or one's upper lip, etc..." is the specific "implementation" that will work differently for different individuals. And your job, just like that of a software engineer, is to experiment with your code to find out the best "implementation" for yourself. If the upper lip doesn't work for you, it's perfectly legit to try the nostrils, not only on the physical location but also the sensation of the in-and-out breaths "brushing" the nostril gates when they move in and out.
Good analogy! :twothumbsup:
I did not answer this question because I could not present the answer this simple.
:D
Obviously now you have to be a bit of a computer geek.
Ok. I found an answer I always thought was the correct answer.
According to the monk in this video, he said that as per Patisambidhamagga, the Pari (object) mukham (Nibbana) Sati (mindfulness)
In other words, you keep the Nibbana as your object of contemplation, goal, or objective. (not to be union with the Brahma or God etc)
The video is in Sinhalease and given here as only my source reference.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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