Relationship between jhanas and stream entry

[Joe.c]

I think there has been thread about suttas having no accounts of sotapannas who have returned.

I already said it. Imagine Buddha said So and so has been new birth as John. What will most fool or puthujjana do? Will they just create a circus instead of practice true dhamma?

Just look at how Dalai Lama was being chosen. It is a CIRCUS. Only a fool will accept that kind of rebirth. An Ariya can't have >7 births, but the dalai lama is number 14 now. Or choosing a Dalai lama with their "old toys". It is a joke, only fool/unwise can accept it.

So the non-returner's mind is never preoccupied(upavicarati) with a sight what is basis for happiness..?

Seeing a sight with the eye, one is preoccupied with a sight that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity.

Sensual pleasure(happiness[somanassa] and pleasure[sukha]) arises from the senses,

The pleasure and happiness that arises from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure.
So there is the saying: ‘From the senses comes sensual pleasure. From sensual pleasure comes the best kind of sensual pleasure, which is said to be the best thing there.’”

1st jhana, 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana and so on as the happiness. Jhana is free from 5 senses. Mind can move around the jhana in instant.

buddha's mind can be occupied by the sight what is basis for happiness, but it is not possible that pleasant feeling would exhaust the mind. Then surely also non-returners mind is like that too.

This is another of your theory.

Not possible for one who is awaken to be occupied with the Sight. Even if there is the most beautiful lady that go naked in front of him, the mind will not shake EVER. Because Buddha or an arahant has fully understood, it is just the sight (AKA movement/sanna).

Well non returner minds is similar to it, but there is 5 additional level of non returner. They need to be freed from jhana as well eventually or free 5 higher fetters.

[confusedlayman]

I think there has been thread about suttas having no accounts of sotapannas who have returned.

I already said it. Imagine Buddha said So and so has been new birth as John. What will most fool or puthujjana do? Will they just create a circus instead of practice true dhamma?

Just look at how Dalai Lama was being chosen. It is a CIRCUS. Only a fool will accept that kind of rebirth. An Ariya can't have >7 births, but the dalai lama is number 14 now. Or choosing a Dalai lama with their "old toys". It is a joke, only fool/unwise can accept it.

So the non-returner's mind is never preoccupied(upavicarati) with a sight what is basis for happiness..?

Seeing a sight with the eye, one is preoccupied with a sight that’s a basis for happiness or sadness or equanimity.

Sensual pleasure(happiness[somanassa] and pleasure[sukha]) arises from the senses,

The pleasure and happiness that arises from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure.
So there is the saying: ‘From the senses comes sensual pleasure. From sensual pleasure comes the best kind of sensual pleasure, which is said to be the best thing there.’”

1st jhana, 2nd jhana, 3rd jhana and so on as the happiness. Jhana is free from 5 senses. Mind can move around the jhana in instant.

buddha's mind can be occupied by the sight what is basis for happiness, but it is not possible that pleasant feeling would exhaust the mind. Then surely also non-returners mind is like that too.

This is another of your theory.

Not possible for one who is awaken to be occupied with the Sight. Even if there is the most beautiful lady that go naked in front of him, the mind will not shake EVER. Because Buddha or an arahant has fully understood, it is just the sight (AKA movement/sanna).

Well non returner minds is similar to it, but there is 5 additional level of non returner. They need to be freed from jhana as well eventually or free 5 higher fetters.

HI, are you sotapanna?

[auto]

Not possible for one who is awaken to be occupied with the Sight. Even if there is the most beautiful lady that go naked in front of him, the mind will not shake EVER.

the word for occupy is pariyādāya. It means 'having exhausted'.

Read this sutta excerpt,
buddha's mind is having feelings, but they are not strong enough to exhaust the mind.

“Surely you must have had feelings so pleasant or so painful that they could occupy your mind?”
“Na hi nūna bhoto gotamassa uppajjati tathārūpā sukhā vedanā yathārūpā uppannā sukhā vedanā cittaṁ pariyādāya tiṭṭheyya; na hi nūna bhoto gotamassa uppajjati tathārūpā dukkhā vedanā yathārūpā uppannā dukkhā vedanā cittaṁ pariyādāya tiṭṭheyyā”ti. Variant: Na hi nūna → naha nūna (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed)

“How could I not, Aggivessana?
“Kiñhi no siyā, aggivessana?

read someone else translation of same passage,
"it could not persist".

“Is it then that a pleasurable feeling has not arisen in the good Gotama of such a nature that, having arisen, impinging on the mind, it could not persist? Is it then that a painful feeling has not arisen in the good Gotama of such a nature that, having arisen, impinging on the mind, it could not persist?”

“How could this not be, Aggivessana?

the word persist entails that something is there.

[Joe.c]

Read this sutta excerpt,
buddha's mind is having feelings, but they are not strong enough to exhaust the mind.

“Surely you must have had feelings so pleasant or so painful that they could occupy your mind?”
“Na hi nūna bhoto gotamassa uppajjati tathārūpā sukhā vedanā yathārūpā uppannā sukhā vedanā cittaṁ pariyādāya tiṭṭheyya; na hi nūna bhoto gotamassa uppajjati tathārūpā dukkhā vedanā yathārūpā uppannā dukkhā vedanā cittaṁ pariyādāya tiṭṭheyyā”ti. Variant: Na hi nūna → naha nūna (bj, sya-all, km, pts1ed)

“How could I not, Aggivessana?
“Kiñhi no siyā, aggivessana?

Did you read the whole Sutta or just part of it?

… This was the third knowledge, which I achieved in the last watch of the night.
Avijja was destroyed and knowledge arose; darkness was destroyed and light arose, as happens for a meditator who is diligent, keen, and resolute.
But even such pleasant feeling did not occupy my mind
…
in the same way, the Realized One has given up the asava(s) so they are unable to arise in the future.

A fully awaken one can’t have any feeling ever (even the pleasant feeling from jhana), because this is why Buddha is called VijjaCaranasampanno (Fully awake/aware of all his conducts:speak, act, and think, because one has fully understood)

Also there is a guard (wisdom) that work 24/7 to stay alert (sati). See SN 47.12.

Can’t sleep either because the mind is so so bright like a light. not the light of imaginantion/halucination that people is seeking from concentration (people say that is samadhi, a fake one indeed).

[auto]

Did you read the whole Sutta or just part of it?

you mean why i bother telling you about the term pariyādāya and bring different translator too to help you get what i mean_

This was the third knowledge,
..
But even such pleasant feeling did not occupy my mind.
Evarūpāpi kho me, aggivessana, uppannā sukhā vedanā cittaṁ na pariyādāya tiṭṭhati.

the point i make is on different level than your rebuke or whatever you attempt here.

you doing it because you think i am fundamentally wrong and thus no need to bother even look. The " realized one has given up asava.." is too much to explain given you have too little interest in it.
but i still copy a line,

For an astute person shrouded by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced.

it says someone(who has given up asavas[assuming you know what astute person is]) can be shrouded by ignorance and fettered by craving..

Do you mean the astute person's body is still the same as it were before becoming an astute person?

but it also says,

..the astute person experiences pleasure and pain.

[Joe.c]

the point i make is on different level than your rebuke or whatever you attempt here.

you doing it because you think i am fundamentally wrong and thus no need to bother even look. The " realized one has given up asava.." is too much to explain given you have too little interest in it.
but i still copy a line,

For an astute person shrouded by ignorance and fettered by craving, this body has been produced.

it says someone(who has given up asavas[assuming you know what astute person is]) can be shrouded by ignorance and fettered by craving..

Do you mean the astute person's body is still the same as it were before becoming an astute person?

but it also says,

..the astute person experiences pleasure and pain.

Again you are confused with supermundane and mundane talk. Don't go back and forth between one Sutta and another unrelated Sutta. One Sutta explain one part of experience, So you can't combine it with other Sutta that talk completely unrelated subject. You will be totally confused by it.

This is why people got so confused and come up with some weird reason to explain it.

Well Like I said good luck. It is your own path. You can believe whatever you want to believe.

O BTW, The body is different body already once you are fully awaken. It is not a regular human body anymore, because one has transcended the birth, sick, oldage and death.

One more thing, This SN 12.19 is translated completely misleading. So thread carefully.

[whynotme]

I think there has been thread about suttas having no accounts of sotapannas who have returned.

I already said it. Imagine Buddha said So and so has been new birth as John. What will most fool or puthujjana do? Will they just create a circus instead of practice true dhamma?

Just look at how Dalai Lama was being chosen. It is a CIRCUS. Only a fool will accept that kind of rebirth. An Ariya can't have >7 births, but the dalai lama is number 14 now. Or choosing a Dalai lama with their "old toys". It is a joke, only fool/unwise can accept it.

The Buddha had many lives before becoming the perfect enlightened one, isn't him not an ariya?

You talked many bs I guess it's for a purpose but there are quite a few users use the same tactics mixing some teaching with bullsht, are you working in a team or coordinated individuals? Using more Pali words does not make you look smarter but just show your trick.

Hmm at least I guess Dalai Lama is a good person. He may achieve something in spiritual, not highest caliber but not a bad person neither. He is quite knowing about advantages and disadvantages of his tradition and seemed to be an opened minded person. That's respectable even he has not reached his highest goal yet, rather than some cheap offense about him from unknown user on internet.

You mostly mixed copy and paste tactics worthless for practice.

[Joe.c]

Good luck.

O one more thing, be careful with the mouth, who know what that mouth will lead to.

[santa100]

Just look at how Dalai Lama was being chosen. It is a CIRCUS. Only a fool will accept that kind of rebirth. An Ariya can't have >7 births, but the dalai lama is number 14 now. Or choosing a Dalai lama with their "old toys". It is a joke, only fool/unwise can accept it.

To be fair, I don't think the Dalai Lama or folks in the Mahayana traditions intended to work toward attaining the Four Noble Fruits, for once one's attained Sotapanna, that'd practically end their Bodhisattva career. Per the Bodhisattva model, they intend to hang around for a much much longer length of time due to their Four Encompassing Vows:

1. Sentient beings are numberless. We vow to save them all.
2. Delusions are endless. We vow to cut through them all.
3. The teachings are infinite. We vow to learn them all.
4. The Buddha Way is inconceivable. We vow to attain it.

[Joe.c]

Just look at how Dalai Lama was being chosen. It is a CIRCUS. Only a fool will accept that kind of rebirth. An Ariya can't have >7 births, but the dalai lama is number 14 now. Or choosing a Dalai lama with their "old toys". It is a joke, only fool/unwise can accept it.

To be fair, I don't think the Dalai Lama or folks in the Mahayana traditions intended to work toward attaining the Four Noble Fruits, for once one's attained Sotapanna, that'd practically end their Bodhisattva career. Per the Bodhisattva model, they intend to hang around for a much much longer length of time due to their Four Encompassing Vows:

1. Sentient beings are numberless. We vow to save them all.
2. Delusions are endless. We vow to cut through them all.
3. The teachings are infinite. We vow to learn them all.
4. The Buddha Way is inconceivable. We vow to attain it.

You don't get the point. They are different beings from number 1 to 14. Someone cleverly created the system. The fool got to believe in the system.

True teaching doesn't lead you to blind belief. It will liberate you here and now. Those are not.

[santa100]

You don't get the point. They are different beings from number 1 to 14. Someone cleverly created the system. The fool got to believe in the system.

Oh I wouldn't jump to conclusion like that. Like I said, if the Dalai Lama doesn't follow the Theravadin's Four Noble Fruits model, but following the Mahayana's Bodhisattva model, then there's nothing wrong with the practitioner taking many subsequent rebirths to fulfill their Vows. We Theravadins have our system, and they have theirs. And I simply don't have the time and resource to learn more about their system in order to make any intelligent critique. So I'll just leave it at that.

[Joe.c]

You don't get the point. They are different beings from number 1 to 14. Someone cleverly created the system. The fool got to believe in the system.

Oh I wouldn't jump to conclusion like that. Like I said, if the Dalai Lama doesn't follow the Theravadin's Four Noble Fruits model, but following the Mahayana's Bodhisattva model, then there's nothing wrong with the practitioner taking many subsequent rebirths to fulfill their Vows. We Theravadins have our system, and they have theirs. And I simply don't have the time and resource to learn more about their system in order to make any intelligent critique. So I'll just leave it at that.

Then why do you comment.

[santa100]

Then why do you comment.

To point out to you that your critique of their system basing on the Dalai Lama taking 14 rebirths instead of 7 is wrong, since it assumes that the Dalai Lama follows the Four Noble Fruits model (with Sotapanna having at most 7 more rebirths), which he does not. Per their system, he'll continue to take many rebirths however long to fulfill his Four Encompassing Vows.

[whynotme]

Good luck.

O one more thing, be careful with the mouth, who know what that mouth will lead to.

You know it, just bet fair game. On behave of whom will you bet?

[whynotme]

Btw you say the body of enlightened one will transform, this particular knowledge is not well know and don't have any proof either. I guess you just copy n paste somewhere and you still don't know much further like other.

I guess it's particular true can you tell more about it? For basic function like saliva, pee n poop are these things changed or what? If not then what will change? Bullet proof skin or leviathan cells?

What will be changed in enlightened body?