Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
santa100
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Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:06 am
santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:03 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:03 am

In Trinitarianism they are the same being or substance.
And so they say
They do yes, and so from that perspective it doesn’t make sense to say the Father did bad things whilst the Son did not.
Yes it does, as evidenced throughout the thread. At least his son didn't say crazy things like that.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:08 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:06 am
santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:03 am
And so they say
They do yes, and so from that perspective it doesn’t make sense to say the Father did bad things whilst the Son did not.
No it does, as evidenced throughout the thread. At least his son didn't say crazy things like that.
They are the same being, for Trinitarians.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:10 am
santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:08 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:06 am

They do yes, and so from that perspective it doesn’t make sense to say the Father did bad things whilst the Son did not.
No it does, as evidenced throughout the thread. At least his son didn't say crazy things like that.
They are the same being, for Trinitarians.
"For Trinitarians", does not mean it's true, again, as evidenced throughout the thread.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

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santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:11 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:10 am
santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:08 am
No it does, as evidenced throughout the thread. At least his son didn't say crazy things like that.
They are the same being, for Trinitarians.
"For Trinitarians", does not mean it's true, again, as evidenced throughout the thread.
No, it doesn’t mean it’s true. I wasn’t talking about what’s true. I don’t think it’s true that the Father did anything at all, truth be told. I was merely highlighting that for Trinitarians the Father and the Son are one.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:15 am
santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:11 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:10 am

They are the same being, for Trinitarians.
"For Trinitarians", does not mean it's true, again, as evidenced throughout the thread.
No, it doesn’t mean it’s true. I wasn’t talking about what’s true. I don’t think it’s true that the Father did anything at all, truth be told. I was merely highlighting that for Trinitarians the Father and the Son are one.
And I'm simply pointing out the clear discrepancies in what the "dad" versus what the "son" did.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:16 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:15 am
santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:11 am
"For Trinitarians", does not mean it's true, again, as evidenced throughout the thread.
No, it doesn’t mean it’s true. I wasn’t talking about what’s true. I don’t think it’s true that the Father did anything at all, truth be told. I was merely highlighting that for Trinitarians the Father and the Son are one.
And I'm simply pointing out the clear discrepancies in what the "dad" versus what the "son" did.
Very early on Marcion thought the same, which is why he denounced the God of the OT and declared Jesus to be a new unknown God. The true and good God. This was of course heretical to the apostolic tradition at the time, and to most Christians today. Most Christians would disagree today, because Trinitarianism is the dominant theological position in mainstream Christianity.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:22 am Very early on Marcion thought the same, which is why he denounced the God of the OT and declared Jesus to be a new unknown God. The true and good God. This was of course heretical to the apostolic tradition at the time, and to most Christians today. Most Christians would disagree today, because Trinitarianism is the dominant theological position in mainstream Christianity.
To be honest, I wouldn't complain had the Christian bible's only composed of the New Testament, and would tend to not raising any issue if Jesus was considered their one true god by Christians. At least that'd make it much harder for George Carlin, Hitchens, Dawkins, and the likes to make their case against "religion".
Last edited by santa100 on Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

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santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:26 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:22 am Very early on Marcion thought the same, which is why he denounced the God of the OT and declared Jesus to be a new unknown God. The true and good God. This was of course heretical to the apostolic tradition at the time, and to most Christians today. Most Christians would disagree today, because Trinitarianism is the dominant theological position in mainstream Christianity.
To be honest, I wouldn't complain had the Christian bible's only composed of the New Testament, and would tend to not raising any issue if Jesus was considered their one true god by Christians.
That would be Marcionism, although his bible consisted only of Luke and some epistles.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
Posts: 6811
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:28 am
santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:26 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:22 am Very early on Marcion thought the same, which is why he denounced the God of the OT and declared Jesus to be a new unknown God. The true and good God. This was of course heretical to the apostolic tradition at the time, and to most Christians today. Most Christians would disagree today, because Trinitarianism is the dominant theological position in mainstream Christianity.
To be honest, I wouldn't complain had the Christian bible's only composed of the New Testament, and would tend to not raising any issue if Jesus was considered their one true god by Christians.
That would be Marcionism, although his bible consisted only of Luke and some epistles.
I'd call it "common-sensism"
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:31 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:28 am
santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:26 am
To be honest, I wouldn't complain had the Christian bible's only composed of the New Testament, and would tend to not raising any issue if Jesus was considered their one true god by Christians.
That would be Marcionism, although his bible consisted only of Luke and some epistles.
I'd call it "common-sensism"
I’m not sure that Marcionism makes sense to be honest. From what we know, Jesus recognised the God of the OT. He never denounced the Father. That doesn’t get you to Trinitarianism though, of course.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:33 am I’m not sure that Marcionism makes sense to be honest. From what we know, Jesus recognised the God of the OT. He never denounced the Father. That doesn’t get you to Trinitarianism though, of course.
But at least without the Old Testament baggage, Jesus wouldn't even have to, for there'd be no evil things he had to denounce to start out with. And as said, Carlin, Dawkins, and Hitchens would be less grumpy about religion in general. (and Harris and Dennett if you want to include all "Four horsemen"!)
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

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santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:36 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:33 am I’m not sure that Marcionism makes sense to be honest. From what we know, Jesus recognised the God of the OT. He never denounced the Father. That doesn’t get you to Trinitarianism though, of course.
But at least without the Old Testament baggage, Jesus wouldn't even have to, for there'd be no evil things he had to denounce to start out with. And as said, Carlin, Dawkins, and Hitchens would be less grumpy about religion in general.
I don’t think so. Hitchens disagreed with Theism in general, religion in general. He didn’t like Buddhism either, saying he didn’t see anything good in “switching off the mind to have bliss”. Dawkins too. There will always be critics of religion of course.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
Posts: 6811
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:42 am
santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:36 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:33 am I’m not sure that Marcionism makes sense to be honest. From what we know, Jesus recognised the God of the OT. He never denounced the Father. That doesn’t get you to Trinitarianism though, of course.
But at least without the Old Testament baggage, Jesus wouldn't even have to, for there'd be no evil things he had to denounce to start out with. And as said, Carlin, Dawkins, and Hitchens would be less grumpy about religion in general.
I don’t think so. Hitchens disagreed with Theism in general, religion in general. He didn’t like Buddhism either, saying he didn’t see anything good in “switching off the mind to have bliss”. Dawkins too. There will always be critics of religion of course.
I said "less grumpy", not not grumpy at all. They did draw a lot of Old Testament accounts to make their case, and rightly so for it gave them so much ammunition.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Ceisiwr »

santa100 wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:36 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:33 am I’m not sure that Marcionism makes sense to be honest. From what we know, Jesus recognised the God of the OT. He never denounced the Father. That doesn’t get you to Trinitarianism though, of course.
But at least without the Old Testament baggage, Jesus wouldn't even have to, for there'd be no evil things he had to denounce to start out with. And as said, Carlin, Dawkins, and Hitchens would be less grumpy about religion in general. (and Harris and Dennett if you want to include all "Four horsemen"!)
I mean for example Hitchens said that whilst he disagreed with Judaism, he thought it good that it didn’t preach the torture of the dead (for there is no concept of Hell) “it’s only when we get to Jesus, meek and mild, do we find such a hideous idea” to paraphrase him.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
Posts: 6811
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by santa100 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:47 am I mean for example Hitchens said that whilst he disagreed with Judaism, he thought it good that it didn’t preach the torture of the dead (for there is no concept of Hell) “it’s only when we get to Jesus, meek and mild, do we find such a hideous idea” to paraphrase him.
I don't recall him as saying that, and so will need to verify the source and the exact background context. But one thing for sure is that the cases he built upon came from the Old Testament A LOT more.
Last edited by santa100 on Tue Dec 27, 2022 4:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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