Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Post Reply
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Bundokji »

Merry Christmas Everyone :heart:

Christmas is a memorization of the birth of Jesus Christ, the son of god. Integral to his designation is that his mother (virgin Mary) was not impregnated by a human, but by the holy spirit, hence can be described as "the mother of god", which provides unity to the holy trinity (through circular reasoning) and allows for his descend, crucifixion and resurrection.

There seems to be striking similarities between the story of Jesus and his mother Virgin Mary, and the Buddha's encounter with Mara, having the earth as his witness (bhumisparsha mudra) and the Buddhas lineage (which equally depend on circular view of death and rebirth).

It is unclear why Buddha's have their final birth on earth, but it seems to be a regularity in Buddhist cosmology:
Again, when the Tathāgata awakens to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment, this earth shakes, shudders, and trembles. This is the fifth cause and condition for a powerful earthquake.
The prophecy about Maitreya Buddha appearing in the human realm/earth (currently dwelling in Tusita heaven) makes the Bodhisattas of the Mahayana tradition sound similar to Christian theology, and sheds light about the connotations of the noble lineage (up to seven returns - one return - no return - arahantship) and the story of creation in Brahmanical/Abrahamic traditions (seven days of creation).

Thoughts.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
dharmacorps
Posts: 2298
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by dharmacorps »

Christmas means many things to different people. Seems much more Northern European pagan tradition to me, shoehorned into a christian tradition. I view it as about generosity, gratitude, and family.
santa100
Posts: 6811
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:55 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by santa100 »

Bundokji wrote:Merry Christmas Everyone...

It is unclear why Buddha's have their final birth on earth, but it seems to be a regularity in Buddhist cosmology
Happy Holidays (Christmas, Kwanzaa, Hanukkah, etc...)!

It makes sense that all the Buddhas took their final birth on earth cuz the planet happens to be the Goldilocks zone of all the Samsara realms. It wouldn't make much sense to take rebirth, cultivate and propagate the Dhamma on some realms where suffering is so overwhelming that it took away most of the audience's attention there(hell, afflicted-spirits, or animal), or where the level of pleasure is so overwhelming that beings don't quite see any value in lending ears to the Good Teaching (those heavenly realms).
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by SarathW »

Happy X/mas
According to Buddhist beliefs.
Bodhisatva also looked for the time of the earth, (the era we live in) geographical location and the continent (north India) caste (higher class) mother, etc.
Perhaps the Arahants disappeared from this earth after about 500 years of Buddha's Parinibbana.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22390
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Ceisiwr »

The attribution of a virgin birth is quite common in the ancient world to famous spiritual or even secular people.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Bundokji »

dharmacorps wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 9:29 pm Christmas means many things to different people. Seems much more Northern European pagan tradition to me, shoehorned into a christian tradition. I view it as about generosity, gratitude, and family.
Strangely, some Abrahamics think of Buddhists as pagans, erecting statues of the Buddha and worshiping it as an idol.

Regardless of what we think of paganism or theism, i think the story of Jesus and virgin Mary can be used to reflect on Buddhism and the schism we see between different sects today.

The Abrahamics or Brahmins perceive the one god as the greatest attainment (Maha Brahma). From my limited exposure, Mahayana describes Theravada as Hīnayāna as it presents Arahantship to be the highest attainment.

MN 49 presents the idea of oneness and the associated creationism as a result of descending from a higher Jhana, which with time, caused a state of confusion or forgetfulness. As such, Maha Brahama is not really the highest attainment except through a state of confusion that the meditator has to overcome where sammasambuddha is the highest in knowledge. So, Theravada uses Maha Brahma as a stepping stone to attain the highest (Arahantship within Gautama Buddha Sasana).

Mahayana begins where Theravada ended, using the same stepping stone Theravada used with Maha Brahama. The Arahant is a mere stepping stone to the higher teaching or to become a Buddha, where the Bodhisatta is the ideal. So, Brahmanism/Abrahamism can teach us something about schism in Buddhism after all.

Add to that Ānantarika Kamma and the idea of killing parents, which refers to the family (the father and mother / Mary and Jesus) and their relationship to Buddhist enlightenment. Otherwise, why would Buddhism put too much emphasis on Brahmanism, and we end up finding ourselves in a similar situation today 2500 after the historical Buddha, celebrating Christmas :toast:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Bundokji »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:09 pm The attribution of a virgin birth is quite common in the ancient world to famous spiritual or even secular people.
I guess secular people would interpret virgin birth as a result of human guilt about sex due to old religious superstitions, which the secular mindset seeks to overcome.

I guess Brahmanism view sex between humans as establishing worldly lineage, which is a distraction from the spiritual lineage. The first of the three true knowledge in Buddhism (pubbe-nivāsanussati) remains open to interpretation as to whether the Buddha remembered his lineage as belonging to the Buddha's or the former worldly lineages that is based on sex between men and women.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:14 pm

The Abrahamics or Brahmins perceive the one god as the greatest attainment (Maha Brahma).
I can't think of any Christians who consider God to be an "attainment". Who attains what?
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:07 pm Happy X/mas
According to Buddhist beliefs.
Bodhisatva also looked for the time of the earth, (the era we live in) geographical location and the continent (north India) caste (higher class) mother, etc.
Perhaps the Arahants disappeared from this earth after about 500 years of Buddha's Parinibbana.
The number 500 can refer to the length of time the dhamma would last after the Buddha's parinibbana, and it has connotations that has to do with Bhikkhuni ordination and the number of Arahants who attended the first council. Strangely, Ven. Ananda who was supportive of Bhikkhuni ordination was the last Arahant to join the first council, known for his good memory (in contrast with Baka), and had to confess about Bhikkhuni ordination and the consequent shortening of how long the dhamma would last (from 1000 year to 500).
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:47 pm I can't think of any Christians who consider God to be an "attainment". Who attains what?
Attainment in terms of being foremost in knowledge. Omniscience is attributed to god, who is not confined to time and space as humans do. Sammasam Buddha's on the other hand have their omniscience as knowing the exact working of Kamma, which in Theravada tradition, even Arahants do not acquire such knowledge.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
User avatar
Sam Vara
Site Admin
Posts: 13482
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Portsmouth, U.K.

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Sam Vara »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:52 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:47 pm I can't think of any Christians who consider God to be an "attainment". Who attains what?
Attainment in terms of being foremost in knowledge. Omniscience is attributed to god, who is not confined to time and space as humans do. Sammasam Buddha's on the other hand have their omniscience as knowing the exact working of Kamma, which in Theravada tradition, even Arahants do not acquire such knowledge.
That's not attainment. God doesn't attain knowledge.
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Bundokji »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 11:05 pm That's not attainment. God doesn't attain knowledge.
It is not an attainment to those who believe it to be the highest. Monotheism thinks of the highest in terms of self governance/independence/perfect autonomy. In Buddhism, such imagination can be a variant of this/that conditionality.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by SarathW »

Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:47 pm
Bundokji wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 10:14 pm

The Abrahamics or Brahmins perceive the one god as the greatest attainment (Maha Brahma).
I can't think of any Christians who consider God to be an "attainment". Who attains what?
Actually, what are the Christians trying to achieve?
The way I understand they will go to heaven or hell as a punishment or reward from God.
Do you pray to God for pardon for your sins, so God pardon you and you go to heaven?
Is God the heaven or the heaven is the God?
Then who created hell and heaven? God?
If God created everything who created God? If God was always there why the other thing was there as well?
If God created the world like we make cars, why he created something to punish?

Please give me a short answer if you know, otherwise do not worry.
Perhaps I have a complete misunderstanding of Christianity the same way many Buddhists do not have any clue about Buddhism. :D
:group:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
SarathW
Posts: 21227
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by SarathW »

Bundokji wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 11:18 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 11:05 pm That's not attainment. God doesn't attain knowledge.
It is not an attainment to those who believe it to be the highest. Monotheism thinks of the highest in terms of self governance/independence/perfect autonomy. In Buddhism, such imagination can be a variant of this/that conditionality.
Just for your knowledge, it is "this/this" not "this/that" however this is another topic and I have created one already.
:focus:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bundokji
Posts: 6494
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Virgin Mary & the Earth as Witness

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Sat Dec 24, 2022 11:19 pm Actually, what are the Christians trying to achieve?
The way I understand they will go to heaven or hell as a punishment or reward from God.
Do you pray to God for pardon for your sins, so God pardon you and you go to heaven?
Is God the heaven or the heaven is the God?
Then who created hell and heaven? God?
If God created everything who created God? If God was always there why the other thing was there as well?
If God created the world like we make cars, why he created something to punish?

Please give me a short answer if you know, otherwise do not worry.
Perhaps I have a complete misunderstanding of Christianity the same way many Buddhists do not have any clue about Buddhism. :D
:group:
While Buddhism emphasize kamma and negate the idea of original sin, there is similarity between the descent of Jesus to earth and the appearance of the Buddha's on earth. In Christian theology, heaven was closed due to the original sin then Jesus came as a salvation where the doors of heaven were open once again. In Buddhism, a Buddha comes to re-discover an ancient path and open it for others to exit Samsara.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Post Reply