Exact process of remembering past lives

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lostitude
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by lostitude »

zerotime wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:12 pm note how you try to solve the contradiction using "mind" when you writes "yet a tree is displayed in your mind".
I think you're just missing the point of the metaphor. Saying 'a tree is displayed in your mind' is similar to saying 'a tree is displayed on your screen' in the computer metaphor. The neurons are not the screen, the neurons are in the CPU. I hope it's clearer now.
Previously, you wrote the neurons are the mind.
Nope, never wrote that anywhere... The only 'contradiction' is the one you made up all on your own.
Why you don't write "yet a tree is displayed in your neurons"?.
For the same reason that I didn’t write that "a tree is displayed in the CPU".
zerotime wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 5:12 pm
lostitude wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:37 pm Who are those "science devotees"? I don’t know of any such group. Science is not a religion[...]It sounds like you are targeting an imaginary cult that does not really exist.
oh yes.. You are a devotee although just of the common type, not a parishioner. Just keeping the belief without being aware of, neither with any special analysis. I can show to you below
Well you haven’t shown anything below, except that you have this oddly misplaced condescendence for people who find that science makes sense. If you don’t get it, it’s fine, but no need to dismiss science as a senseless cult simply because you personally don’t like it, especially when literally all your arguments are flawed. That wasn’t really the topic I was here to discuss anyway...
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zerotime
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by zerotime »

lostitude wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 11:06 pm I think you're just missing the point of the metaphor. Saying 'a tree is displayed in your mind' is similar to saying 'a tree is displayed on your screen' in the computer metaphor. The neurons are not the screen, the neurons are in the CPU. I hope it's clearer now.
note that you don't know where is the screen. Although obviously you have realized this fact before this message.
Well you haven’t shown anything below, except that you have this oddly misplaced condescendence for people who find that science makes sense
yes and you know it because you have realized that you don't know where is the screen.

When you are checking your own contradiction then you use the accusation of condescend that yourself chose to start writing in this thread:
"Frankly this is about as compelling as the story of Eve being created from Adam’s rib"
...
"So basically the scriptures say that Buddha accessed such memories but there is no theoretical model as to how this is possible, right?
Thanks!"
anyway it doesn't care. When somebody is really interested in the solution instead in keeping his beliefs, he will look for that screen instead for condescend or any other thing.
lostitude
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by lostitude »

zerotime wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:22 am
When you are checking your own contradiction then you use the accusation of condescend that yourself chose to start writing in this thread:
"Frankly this is about as compelling as the story of Eve being created from Adam’s rib"
...
"So basically the scriptures say that Buddha accessed such memories but there is no theoretical model as to how this is possible, right?
Thanks!"
Then it was all a misunderstanding.
Re. the first quote, I was reacting to an article masquerading as science, using pseudo-scientific arguments to advance esoteric beliefs that have nothing to do with science.
Re. the second one, there was zero condescension, as it was a simple factual question without any judgment in it. In fact it summarizes the whole topic of this thread. I’m sorry if you misinterpreted it. Others even replied ’yes’ to this question, because they understood what I was asking.

zerotime wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 1:22 am note that you don't know where is the screen. Although obviously you have realized this fact before this message.
I actually already discussed this with Ceisiwr, who mentionned the hard problem of consciousness just a few posts ago, maybe you have missed it.
Again I don’t dispute the hard problem, I just don’t see its relevance here, since *how* one remembers past events is just one of the ’easy problems’ and what has been known for decades about the neural correlates of memory is enough to build a pretty solid theory about how it happens. And that’s the only thing I was interested in, i.e. does Buddhism offer an alternative account of this specific easy problem (see the question I asked, which you understood as an expression of disdain...) - not the hard problem of why one experiences whatever is experienced (the screen you can’t locate because as of today no one can, which is why I compared it to your mind’s eye, but apparently you missed that post too). I suggest you re-read the original questions I asked on the first page of this thread. Others like Radix and Alex123 got me just fine and have provided relevant answers to my specific questions.
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zerotime
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by zerotime »

lostitude wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:44 am And that’s the only thing I was interested in, i.e. does Buddhism offer an alternative account of this specific easy problem
in such case I agree with the rest of people. No Ikea guide to remember past lives. Fortunately.
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Radix
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by Radix »

lostitude wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:29 pm
Radix wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:08 pm If one understands the workings of kamma, and understands that "kamma, therefore, rebirth", then it stands to reason that one will "remember one's past lives". So it appears that understanding the workings of kamma will lead to an understanding of rebirth, and to the "remembering of past lives".
Interesting! So do you think that kamma can be translated as a set of mathematical equations, whereby if you have the end result, by knowing the equation you can work your way back to the original data?
In that analogy, we'd be dealing with a complex set of mathematical equations with many unknown variables; so, unsolvable for all practical intents and purposes.
But the point is that if there is a regularity to kamma, if there is a law of kamma, then, yes, things should be predictable and traceable.
3. Merely just contemplating the possibility of rebirth (without necessarily "remembering one's past lives") is an exercise in empathy, an exercise in "putting oneself into another's shoes". This can be extremely offensive to one's ego. I imagine it was quite egregious in the time of the Buddha, where the caste system was still strongly in place and generally unquestioningly respected. To imagine oneself in the position of someone lower on the socio-economic scale, or even as an animal -- I imagine that was regarded as off-limits, or at least accompanied by strong negative emotion.
Apologies if I misinterpret you, but it sounds like you see the whole rebirth business as a sort of meditational practice to develop empathy and detachment from the current sense of self, and maybe even that this was the Buddha’s whole point when he mentioned rebirth stories, regardless of them being factual or not.
No. I was thinking of the possible reasons why the notion rebirth is particularly unpopular among people, including among Buddhists.
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Radix
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by Radix »

lostitude wrote: Thu Jan 19, 2023 1:37 pmWho are those "science devotees"? I don’t know of any such group. Science is not a religion, and the question of "what is gravity" is arguably not a scientific question but a philosophical one. I don’t know of any scientist who would be upset if you told them that no one knows what gravity is in essence. It sounds like you are targeting an imaginary cult that does not really exist.
They do exist: they are the devotees of scientism. It's very popular.
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Radix
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by Radix »

zerotime wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:20 amNo Ikea guide to remember past lives.
When "remembering past lives", what exactly would one even remember?

Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas?

Particular narratives about what it is like to be a particular (kind of) person?


I have a strange fondness for sail ships and no explanation for where it could come from, because in this life, I have had minimum contact with them. Yet I love the sensations related to a sail ship -- the sounds of the ropes, the sounds of the strained wood, the wind, the way the wood feels when walking on it. I have to prune some large trees and for this I use ropes to tie the branches when cutting them so that they don't fall on the ground damaging the flowerbeds etc. And whenever I handle those ropes, I feel like on a ship. How come? Where is this coming from? Is it a memory from a past life? Do some other people who claim to remember their past life actually have similar experiences as I do, it's just that they conclude that those are memories of a past life, while I don't?
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justindesilva
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by justindesilva »

Radix wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:44 pm
zerotime wrote: Sat Jan 21, 2023 12:20 amNo Ikea guide to remember past lives.
When "remembering past lives", what exactly would one even remember?

Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas?

Particular narratives about what it is like to be a particular (kind of) person?


I have a strange fondness for sail ships and no explanation for where it could come from, because in this life, I have had minimum contact with them. Yet I love the sensations related to a sail ship -- the sounds of the ropes, the sounds of the strained wood, the wind, the way the wood feels when walking on it. I have to prune some large trees and for this I use ropes to tie the branches when cutting them so that they don't fall on the ground damaging the flowerbeds etc. And whenever I handle those ropes, I feel like on a ship. How come? Where is this coming from? Is it a memory from a past life? Do some other people who claim to remember their past life actually have similar experiences as I do, it's just that they conclude that those are memories of a past life, while I don't?
Remembering the past is a stimulation of events in our brain . When we see a church somewhere or a dagoba someehere or an object of some nature our past events in a relative manner appears in our mind . This is a stimulation of sangna
When we see a woman similar to our mother our mother appears in our mind this is a recollection stored in our mind .
But when we are reborn we will be placed in another novel environment without objects or figures for mental stimulation as sangna or signals to reappear . Yet things like sailing or flying or churches could be stimulus for a mind to stimulate the past experiences for creating a feeling . From sutta desana or jataka stories that lord budda mentions them with an event at such a place at a certain instance with so and so in an act .
Not forgetting that he had developed the ability to travel his mind to the past events but with reference to an objective .
wenjaforever
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by wenjaforever »

I want to propose a conjecture:

• 1st jhana is telepathy
• 2nd jhana is perfected telepathy
• 3rd jhana is clairvoyance
• 4th jhana is the ability to see past and future

Note that the ability of creation was achieved in nimmanarati, and omnipresence is in 2nd arupa jhana.
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by santa100 »

wenjaforever wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:02 pm I want to propose a conjecture:

• 1st jhana is telepathy
• 2nd jhana is perfected telepathy
• 3rd jhana is clairvoyance
• 4th jhana is the ability to see past and future

Note that the ability of creation was achieved in nimmanarati, and omnipresence is in 2nd arupa jhana.
The Vism. mentioned that one'd need to get to the 4th jhana to attain the state of "imperturbability" which is necessary for the further development of those various supernormal powers:
Vism wrote:In order to show the benefits of developing concentration to clansmen whose concentration has reached the fourth jhána, and in order to teach progressively refined Dhamma, five kinds of mundane direct-knowledge have been described by the Blessed One. They are: (1) the kinds of supernormal power, described in the way beginning, “When his concentrated mind is thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, and has become malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability,1 he directs, he inclines, his mind to the kinds of supernormal power. He wields the various kinds of supernormal power. Having been one, he becomes many …” (D I 77); (2) the knowledge of the divine ear element; (3) the knowledge of penetration of minds; (4) the knowledge of recollection of past lives; and (5) the knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings.
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by wenjaforever »

santa100 wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 10:31 pm
The Vism. mentioned that one'd need to get to the 4th jhana to attain the state of "imperturbability" which is necessary for the further development of those various supernormal powers:
Vism wrote:In order to show the benefits of developing concentration to clansmen whose concentration has reached the fourth jhána, and in order to teach progressively refined Dhamma, five kinds of mundane direct-knowledge have been described by the Blessed One. They are: (1) the kinds of supernormal power, described in the way beginning, “When his concentrated mind is thus purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, and has become malleable, wieldy, steady, and attained to imperturbability,1 he directs, he inclines, his mind to the kinds of supernormal power. He wields the various kinds of supernormal power. Having been one, he becomes many …” (D I 77); (2) the knowledge of the divine ear element; (3) the knowledge of penetration of minds; (4) the knowledge of recollection of past lives; and (5) the knowledge of the passing away and reappearance of beings.
Which one of Gautama's students achieved the highest jhana? Does any of them possess these abilities like a Buddha?
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
santa100
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by santa100 »

wenjaforever wrote: Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:12 pm Which one of Gautama's students achieved the highest jhana? Does any of them possess these abilities like a Buddha?
There're probably many disciples who achieved high levels of jhanas, but the one who stood out in terms of supernormal powers that come pretty close to the Buddha's was Mahāmoggallāna
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zerotime
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by zerotime »

Radix wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:44 pm When "remembering past lives", what exactly would one even remember?
Sights, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, and ideas?
Particular narratives about what it is like to be a particular (kind of) person?

I have a strange fondness for sail ships and no explanation for where it could come from, because in this life, I have had minimum contact with them. Yet I love the sensations related to a sail ship -- the sounds of the ropes, the sounds of the strained wood, the wind, the way the wood feels when walking on it. I have to prune some large trees and for this I use ropes to tie the branches when cutting them so that they don't fall on the ground damaging the flowerbeds etc. And whenever I handle those ropes, I feel like on a ship. How come? Where is this coming from? Is it a memory from a past life? Do some other people who claim to remember their past life actually have similar experiences as I do, it's just that they conclude that those are memories of a past life, while I don't?
from what the Buddhist texts shows, and also from the evidences in people from other beliefs or with none, it seems the memories of past lifes include clear images and sense impressions, with the same authority in the mind than those images that you and me can have from our last holidays.

I don't know if your feelings could be directly linked with a past life like a sailor, or if this could be a mind-image in your mind to give sense to those feelings, be from a previous life or not. The authority of what happens inside yourself only can be fully verified by yourself. Although if you don't have an enough powerful arising of all that, then it is understable the doubt.

However, there is a few people with a kamma able to cause the arising of clear memories or the supranormal skills to get that in a clear way. Also in non-Buddhist people. This also was a reason for quite past heresies inside the Theistic religions. As we can imagine, not many people was ready to be burned in a fire just by keeping some intellectual differences as happens in the internet Buddhist boards. Many were absolutely convinced of their own personal experiences.

I don't have idea of my past lifes, although I don't share that view about in all cases this should be a building of mind-images from striking although blurred feelings. In some people this can be very empiric. Or so empiric like the degree of doubt that we can have about the memories of this life.
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by wenjaforever »

Remembering past lives should be the ultimate powers there is.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Re: Exact process of remembering past lives

Post by Sam Vara »

wenjaforever wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:27 pm Remembering past lives should be the ultimate powers there is.
It is. It's pubbe-nivāsanussati, knowledge of former abodes or lives; the first of the realisations which the Buddha had on the night of his enlightenment.
"When the mind was thus concentrated, purified, bright, unblemished, rid of defilement, pliant, malleable, steady, & attained to imperturbability, I directed it to the knowledge of recollecting my past lives. I recollected my manifold past lives, i.e., one birth, two... five, ten... fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand, many eons of cosmic contraction, many eons of cosmic expansion, many eons of cosmic contraction & expansion: 'There I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose there. There too I had such a name, belonged to such a clan, had such an appearance. Such was my food, such my experience of pleasure & pain, such the end of my life. Passing away from that state, I re-arose here.' Thus I remembered my manifold past lives in their modes & details.
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