Is Arahant just a concept?

[SarathW]

Is Arahant just a concept?
Can we find an object called Arahant?
Is the physical body, the Arahant?
How do you compare your answer to a murderer? (for instance Angulimala)

[thepea]

Is Arahant just a concept?
Can we find an object called Arahant?
Is the physical body, the Arahant?
How do you compare your answer to a murderer? (for instance Angulimala)

Don’t confuse apparent and ultimate reality.

[cappuccino]

Is Arahant just a concept?

Arhat is purity

[pegembara]

Things have attributes. A shape, colour, form, taste, and smell like the body.
What attributes does the 'arahant' possess?
For that matter, what attributes does 'Sarath' possess? Apart from having some views, ideas, memories etc that are constantly changing.

[justindesilva]

Is Arahant just a concept?
Can we find an object called Arahant?
Is the physical body, the Arahant?
How do you compare your answer to a murderer? (for instance Angulimala)

Arhant is a concept of arya satya like arya ashtangika margaya..

[SarathW]

Things have attributes. A shape, colour, form, taste, and smell like the body.
What attributes does the 'arahant' possess?
For that matter, what attributes does 'Sarath' possess? Apart from having some views, ideas, memories etc that are constantly changing.

I am glad you noticed it.

[kissjackstaff]

What attributes does the 'arahant' possess?
For that matter, what attributes does 'Sarath' possess? Apart from having some views, ideas, memories etc that are constantly changing. happy wheels

I also have the same question. Who can answer?

[pegembara]

What attributes does the 'arahant' possess?
For that matter, what attributes does 'Sarath' possess? Apart from having some views, ideas, memories etc that are constantly changing. happy wheels

I also have the same question. Who can answer?

Attributes are characteristics we give to things which are concepts. The Ganges is a concept that only exists in our minds. If it dries up due to global warming it stops being a 'thing' and the concept is no longer tenable.

The Ganges (/ˈɡændʒiːz/ GAN-jeez) (in India: Ganga (/ˈɡʌŋɡə/ GUNG-ə); in Bangladesh: Padma (/ˈpʌdmə/ PUD-mə))[5][6][7][8] is a trans-boundary river of Asia which flows through India and Bangladesh. The 2,704 km (1,680 mi) river rises in the western Himalayas in the Indian state of Uttarakhand. It flows south and east through the Gangetic plain of North India, receiving the right-bank tributary, the Yamuna, which also rises in the western Indian Himalayas, and several left-bank tributaries from Nepal that account for the bulk of its flow.[9][10] In West Bengal state, India, a feeder canal taking off from its right bank diverts 50% of its flow southwards, artificially connecting it to the Hooghly river. The Ganges continues into Bangladesh, its name changing to the Padma. It is then joined by the Jamuna, the lower stream of the Brahmaputra, and eventually the Meghna, forming the major estuary of the Ganges Delta, and emptying into the Bay of Bengal. The Ganges-Brahmaputra-Meghna system is the third largest river on earth by discharge.[11][12]

The main stem of the Ganges begins at the town of Devprayag,[1] at the confluence of the Alaknanda, which is the source stream in hydrology on account of its greater length, and the Bhagirathi, which is considered the source stream in Hindu mythology.

The Ganges is a lifeline to millions of people who live in its basin and depend on it for their daily needs.[13] It has been important historically, with many former provincial or imperial capitals such as Pataliputra,[14] Kannauj,[14] Kara, Munger, Kashi, Patna, Hajipur, Delhi, Bhagalpur, Murshidabad, Baharampur, Kampilya, and Kolkata located on its banks or the banks of tributaries and connected waterways. The river is home to approximately 140 species of fish, 90 species of amphibians, and also reptiles and mammals, including critically endangered species such as the gharial and South Asian river dolphin.[15] The Ganges is the most sacred river to Hindus.[16] It is worshipped as the goddess Ganga in Hinduism.[17]

The Ganges is threatened by severe pollution. This poses a danger not only to humans but also to animals. The levels of fecal coliform bacteria from human waste in the river near Varanasi are more than a hundred times the Indian government's official limit.[15] The Ganga Action Plan, an environmental initiative to clean up the river, has been considered a failure[a][18] which is variously attributed to corruption, a lack of will in the government, poor technical expertise,[c] poor environmental planning[d] and a lack of support from religious authorities.[e]

The arahant although just a concept has no attributes since they are not defined by form, feelings, thoughts, actions etc.
They cannot be pinned down.

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

[Johann]

So no concept at all, Such, unlikely anything else.

[auto]

The arahant although just a concept has no attributes since they are not defined by form, feelings, thoughts, actions etc.
They cannot be pinned down.

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

*Tathagata treats actually non-existent objective support as a sign, as an objective support. (inspired by astasahasrika)

in case of ordinary person, the support exists. That for tathagata is non-existent(comparing with sutta)

“Mendicants, what you intend or plan, and what you have underlying tendencies for become a support for the continuation of consciousness.

“Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti ārammaṇametaṁ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.

When this support exists, consciousness becomes established.

Will my form reply? Or my feeling, perception, impulses, or consciousness? Will my
outward appearance reply, or my shape? Or will the emptiness of form reply, or
the emptiness of feeling, perception, impulses or consciousness? Obviously the
emptiness of form, etc., does not have the capacity to reply.
[360] Nor do I see
any dharma which could reply, or which should reply, or by which one could
reply, or any dharma which has been predicted to the supreme enlightenment.

non-existent objective support

..
That is the own-being of all dharmas, because they are without any own-being.

..
The Lord: Why did that thought occur to you? Can you, Sariputra, see
that dharma endowed with which you have been made into an Arhat?
Sariputra: No, Lord. [361]

*main quote

Subhuti: An act of will is raised only with an objective support, and not
without, in the sense that one treats an actually non-existent objective support as
a sign, as an objective support.
..
The act of will is isolated from the
sign [which seems to cause it], and it arises only in reference to the conventional
expressions current in the world.

[pegembara]

in case of ordinary person, the support exists. That for tathagata is non-existent(comparing with sutta)
https://suttacentral.net/sn12.40/en/suj ... ript=latin wrote:
“Mendicants, what you intend or plan, and what you have underlying tendencies for become a support for the continuation of consciousness.

“Yañca, bhikkhave, ceteti yañca pakappeti yañca anuseti ārammaṇametaṁ hoti viññāṇassa ṭhitiyā.

When this support exists, consciousness becomes established.

When consciousness has no support, it doesn't become established and at that moment existence and experiences (the 'world') ceases aka bhava-nirodha.

This is dependent cessation/nirodho as opposed to dependent arising or origination.

At Savatthi. There the Blessed One said, "One attached is unreleased; one unattached is released. Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to (a physical) form, supported by form (as its object),[1] landing on form, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to feeling, supported by feeling (as its object), landing on feeling, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to perception, supported by perception (as its object), landing on perception, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

"Should consciousness, when standing, stand attached to fabrications, supported by fabrications (as its object), landing on fabrications, watered with delight, it would exhibit growth, increase, & proliferation.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food... contact... intellectual intention... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or increase. Where consciousness does not land or increase, there is no alighting of name-&-form. Where there is no alighting of name-&-form, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

[Scabrella]

Attributes are characteristics we give to things which are concepts. The Ganges is a concept that only exists in our minds. If it dries up due to global warming it stops being a 'thing' and the concept is no longer tenable.

If 'global warming' is also a concept, it is no longer tenable, according to your reasoning.

The arahant although just a concept has no attributes since they are not defined by form, feelings, thoughts, actions etc.
They cannot be pinned down.

If an arahant cannot be defined, why would a person aspire to be an arahant?

[SarathW]

Attributes are characteristics we give to things which are concepts. The Ganges is a concept that only exists in our minds. If it dries up due to global warming it stops being a 'thing' and the concept is no longer tenable.

If 'global warming' is also a concept, it is no longer tenable, according to your reasoning.

The arahant although just a concept has no attributes since they are not defined by form, feelings, thoughts, actions etc.
They cannot be pinned down.

If an arahant cannot be defined, why would a person aspire to be an arahant?

Good question.
A person can be a doctor, driver, husband, father, brother, Gardner, etc depending on what he is doing.
In the same way, Arahant is also defined based on certain criteria.
So when we look for an Arahant what we see are some attributes.

[salayatananirodha]

The arahant although just a concept has no attributes since they are not defined by form, feelings, thoughts, actions etc.
They cannot be pinned down.

"And so, Anuradha — when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth or reality even in the present life — is it proper for you to declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata — the supreme man, the superlative man, attainer of the superlative attainment — being described, is described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

"No, lord."

[Paccayata]

[quote=pegembara post_id=708834 time=1672890671 user_id=737
Attributes are characteristics we give to things which are concepts. The Ganges is a concept that only exists in our minds. If it dries up due to global warming it stops being a 'thing' and the concept is no longer tenable.
[/quote]

I agree with you completely, but I'm wondering whether this is consistent or at odds with Theravada doctrine. I'm not suggesting it isn't, per se, but Mahayana seems more clear about this. I'm never certain where the Theravada (i.e. Pali Canon) stands on this. I think it's consistent with Theravada, but it's harder for me to find texts to support it. The Pali Canon is my favorite, so I'd love to be clearer on it. If you know anything offhand, please share it. Thank you.