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Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Wed Jan 11, 2023 9:54 am
by thomaslaw
If you had met a Streanwinner, so what? Just see the Dhamma by yourself. :buddha1:

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 1:46 pm
by User13866
santa100 wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:40 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:00 pm Agree.
It is easier to say if someone is not an Arahant if he blatantly breaks precepts etc.
But there were Arahants in Buddha's time who had harsh speech.
In Sri Lanka, some lay people claim Arahant status while they are married.
Even in that case, we do not know whether he is lying.
First of, if some lay person claiming Arahantship out of the blue, then it seems quite fishy right from the start. But lets' say given the benefit of the doubt, the next checklist should be: did that guy immediately joined monkhood or die soon after? If not, then his/her their claim is bogus.

"If a layman attains arahant-ship, only two destinations await him; either he must enter the Order that very day or else he must attain parinibbàna" ~ Milindapanha III.19 ~
santa100 wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:07 am
SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 04, 2023 11:59 pm To start with Malindapanha is not a credible document as Tipitaka even though I really like it.
Even if it is in Tipitaka we have to assume that the Tipitaka covers everything.
So we still do not know. As I said the best we can do is to see whether the person has some Sila at least to observe the five precepts.
We do know. Those conditions aren't just mentioned in the Miln. but also by the MN's Comys. Furthermore, there are very few instances of lay arahants, and all those cases satisfied either one of the two conditions, as Ven. Bodhi's note from "Connected Discourses":
The Buddha’s statement thus indicates that the lay follower has become an arahant. Apart from the few instances of lay people who attained arahantship just before renouncing the household life (like Yasa at Vin I 17,1-3), this may be the only mention of a lay arahant in the Nikayas, and in his case the attainment occurs on the verge of death. Mil 264-66 lays down the thesis that a lay person who attains arahantship either goes forth that day (i.e., becomes a monk or nun) or passes away into final Nibbana.

Layman can not be arahant according to canonical Theravada. Such mythology appears only in the commentary.
Points of Controversy4.1 As to whether a Layman may be Arahant

Controverted Point: That a layman may be Arahant.

Theravādin: You say the layman may be Arahant. But you imply therewith that the Arahant has the layman's fetters. “No”, you say, “they do not exist for him”. Then how can a layman be Arahant? Now for the Arahant the lay-fetters are put away, cut off at the root, made as the stump of a palm tree, incapable of renewed life or of coming again to birth. Can you say that of a layman?

You admit that there was never a layman who, as such without putting away his lay-fetters, made an end in this very life of all sorrow. Is there not a Suttanta in which the Wanderer Vacchagotta addressed the Exalted One thus:

“Is there now, O Gotama, any layman who, without having put away the layman's fetters, makes at death an end of Ill”?

And to whom the Exalted One said:

“Nay, Vacchagotta, there is none”?

Again, in affirming your proposition, you imply that an Arahant may carry on sexual relations, may suffer such matters to come into his life, may indulge in a home encumbered with children, may seek to enjoy sandalwood preparations of Kāsi, may wear wreaths, use perfumes and ointments, may accept gold and silver, may acquire goats and sheep, poultry and pigs, elephants, cattle, horses and mares, partridges, quails, peacocks and pheasants, may wear an attractively swathed head-dress, may wear white garments with long skirts, may be a house-dweller all his life—which of course you deny.

Uttarāpathaka: Then, if my proposition be wrong, how is it that Yasa of the clans, Uttiya the householder, Setu the Brahmin youth, attained Arahantship in all the circumstances of life in the laity?

https://suttacentral.net/kv4.1/en/aung- ... ight=false

And i haven't met any stream-enterer as far as i know. I don't even know of anybody who i think is likely to be a stream-enterer.

I know a monk or two such that i wouldn't be surprised either way if they were or were not sotapanna or higher.

Actually I wouldn't be surprised if there are no stream-enterers for me to meet but i wouldn't be surprised either way because i've heard many reports.

I don't really care about this.

There are no Arahants with magical powers that i know of but i am still going to try attaining it.

The question is not whether someone alive has attained it but whether or not it's possible for you to attain it.

It's like the monkey experiment.


Nevermind what everybody around you is doing...

There are many explainations as to why there is a lack of attainments and you should pursue the highest possible goal.

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:23 pm
by Alex123
About "lay Arhat".


What if an un-ordained person lives in someone's basement (owns nothing) and is supplied with 4 necessities of life by faithful owners/renters of the house.

Can such Arhat exist? Why not?

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:43 pm
by User13866
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:23 pm About "lay Arhat".


What if an un-ordained person lives in someone's basement (owns nothing) and is supplied with 4 necessities of life by faithful owners/renters of the house.

Can such Arhat exist? Why not?
The point is that an unordained arahant is not the same thing as a lay arahant, that is how the words are used.

According to the Abhidhamma calling someone a layman essentially denotes someone 'fettered to homelife'.

This is unlike the way we are taught to use these words by commentary where layman is someone who is not ordained and an arahant can be a layman for a few days.

In vinaya there is a story of Yasa, a layman who hears the Dhamma and becomes an Arahant. He then ordains not wanting to go back home.

According to the canonical Theravada, Yasa stopped being a layman in that he attained Arahantship and not in that he was given acceptance in the order of monks.

I think an Arahant can be unordained and own a house. Yasa still owned all of his posessions after becoming an Arahant.

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:50 pm
by Kilaya Ciriello
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:23 pm About "lay Arhat".


What if an un-ordained person lives in someone's basement (owns nothing) and is supplied with 4 necessities of life by faithful owners/renters of the house.

Can such Arhat exist? Why not?
Isn't the right question to ask, regardless of the circumstances, whether the person is dwelling with a mind completely free from clinging? Is he or she permanently established in a clear mental state that cannot become agitated? That is undisturbable? . . . in a state of mind that is delivered from any and all possible occurrences of suffering? Isn't this the right goal, the right state to value and search for in others irregardless of where and how they are living? If the Buddha taught that one must been living a fully renounced life in order to experience this, I accept this. But it's really hard to know this when looking at others. Didn't even Sariputta get it wrong about whether Channa was an arahant in MN144? It took the Buddha to set Sariputta straight, that no, it didn't matter that Channa lived in dependence on certain lay households, it mattered that Channa lived his last life anywhere. After death Channa was no longer to be found by Gods or men in any type of body, form or formless.

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:52 pm
by User13866
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:23 pm What if an un-ordained person lives in someone's basement (owns nothing) and is supplied with 4 necessities of life by faithful owners/renters of the house.

Can such Arhat exist? Why not?
I believe that the closest thing we can think of to an unordained Arahant is a private-Buddha. They are also technically unordained Arahants.
Five things that can’t be done. A mendicant with defilements ended can’t deliberately take the life of a living creature, take something with the intention to steal, have sex, tell a deliberate lie, or store up goods for their own enjoyment like they did as a lay person.
https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato ... ript=latin

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:24 pm
by Alex123
User13866 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:52 pm I believe that the closest thing we can think of to an unordained Arahant is a private-Buddha. They are also technically unordained Arahants.
Private Buddha is when there is no Dhamma Teaching available, the person awakens to it by oneself and does not teach.

Today, it is still available, right? So by definition, one can't be Private Buddha.

Five things that can’t be done. A mendicant with defilements ended can’t deliberately take the life of a living creature, take something with the intention to steal, have sex, tell a deliberate lie, or store up goods for their own enjoyment like they did as a lay person.
https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato ... ript=latin
Right. If that person is un-ordained, has no defilements/etc, no money or personal possessions, and lives in someone's basement - what is wrong with that?

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:45 pm
by User13866
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:24 pm
User13866 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:52 pm I believe that the closest thing we can think of to an unordained Arahant is a private-Buddha. They are also technically unordained Arahants.
Private Buddha is when there is no Dhamma Teaching available, the person awakens to it by oneself and does not teach.

Today, it is still available, right? So by definition, one can't be Private Buddha.
Right. My point was merely that a private Buddha is technically just a self-awakened Arahant and is not ordained.
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:24 pm
Five things that can’t be done. A mendicant with defilements ended can’t deliberately take the life of a living creature, take something with the intention to steal, have sex, tell a deliberate lie, or store up goods for their own enjoyment like they did as a lay person.
https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato ... ript=latin
Right. If that person is un-ordained, has no defilements/etc, no money or personal possessions, and lives in someone's basement - what is wrong with that?
I don't think there is anything wrong with that but maybe we should give them some posessions like clothing at least :tongue:

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:44 pm
by Alex123
User13866 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:45 pm I don't think there is anything wrong with that but maybe we should give them some posessions like clothing at least :tongue:
Of course. Lay supporters would provide basic necessities. It is only that Arhat would not own anything.

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:53 pm
by DNS
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:23 pm What if an un-ordained person lives in someone's basement (owns nothing) and is supplied with 4 necessities of life by faithful owners/renters of the house.
Can such Arhat exist? Why not?
What if the faithful owners/renters of the house decided not to provide the necessities any more? What if they suddenly felt (let's say wrongly) that they have been duped by a conman who thinks he's an arahant?

I suppose then he could go to a monastery, at that point?

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:10 pm
by Alex123
DNS wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:53 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:23 pm What if an un-ordained person lives in someone's basement (owns nothing) and is supplied with 4 necessities of life by faithful owners/renters of the house.
Can such Arhat exist? Why not?
What if the faithful owners/renters of the house decided not to provide the necessities any more? What if they suddenly felt (let's say wrongly) that they have been duped by a conman who thinks he's an arahant?

I suppose then he could go to a monastery, at that point?
What if the same happens to the monastery?

That Arahant would go either to a monastery (if available, of course. I wonder how he will be received by the Sangha, if there is already a controversy about stream-enterers) or to another lay supporter's house.

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:15 pm
by DNS
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 11:10 pm What if the same happens to the monastery?
That Arahant would go either to a monastery (if available, of course. I wonder how he will be received by the Sangha, if there is already a controversy about stream-enterers) or to another lay supporter's house.
That's true, although less likely to happen at a monastery with a good community support. At a monastery the support is spread out over many families and individuals. At a home, it is all up to one or two people that control the necessities for the noble one and then his fate too.

I have heard (in some rare instances though), a monastery closing down due to lack of support. In those cases, the monks and the abbot return to the main temple / monastery.

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:50 am
by Mahabrahma
I've met a number of Awakened people. I personally don't follow Nirvana very much, though it's extremely and amazingly soothing and Compassionate, my goal is Higher than that. I don't believe Nirvana is a true extinction.

Now what is an Arhat as opposed to a Buddha? It's no joke that one must understand it. Nirvana fully encompasses and let's a prospective Buddhist into the Stream, then based on certain meditative choices, one can become an Arhat if they accept that they need to finally and fully empty the Skandhas and end every material sense, replacing the senses with the purpose of full Nirvana and with Transcendental Holy Senses in order to become an Arhat, continuing with senses like that of the Buddha, who eats but doesn't eat, who neither exists nor not exists, who sleeps but doesn't sleep, who teaches the Dharma but doesn't teach the Dharma, who walks but doesn't walk. The Kleshas are empty because Nirvana is empty, but Nirvana once fully achieved is the true identity of the Arhat because they have developed a full connection to the River of the Stream of blowing out the fire to become water, to become water. I met a Seeker one day who asked me: "Are you Nirvana?" And I immediately replied that I was not. Even these days I don't consider Nirvana to be a true extinction because every phenomena from the very first holds to the Absolute Truth of containing on their own accords the marks of tranquil extinction. Once the sons of the Buddhas carry out such a Path, then in future existences they will become Buddhas. That is the Path.

Becoming a Buddha is like a Turtle raising it's head into a hole of floating driftwood in the middle of the Ocean during a raging storm, and believing in one's ability to do such things, and in the Meditative abilities of the Buddha, the Dharma, and the Sangha, for such Attainments are found every day, and they are not irrational. The intension behind the act of Meditation on the Holy provides the Fruit of Buddhahood once gained.

Yet people, by the trillions will tell you out of the blue that you can't succeed in the very Buddhism that they have an obligation to protect. Because the mentality of "you can't" is a temporary substitute for the maras that are trying to hide that they can't and that they won't become Buddhas, because that would mean immediate repentance of all sin, and trillions of people across this Universe are falling into hell because they don't trust in those who have Compassion on them, they are even resentful of their own Buddha-Nature. So don't fall into such a pothole when you're on your way to becoming who you want to be. As much as people don't want to admit it, people even in this Saha World are mostly full of Karuna. Karuna will set you free instead of a fire that burns up everything in lust, which is the enemy of this world.

Let yourself soak your Compassion and it's Bodhi Seeds so you can plant many trees of your Love for others. Those beings that are sent here for a good purpose eventually produce good deeds, merit, and good fruit. And we were all sent into this beginingless Saha World which immutable material nature won't allow an end to for the purpose of purification, for the purpose of becoming a Buddha, who's Dharma is Love. Metta is all of the Buddha's deeds, the Highest Metta, and if you follow suit with Him forever, in the process one day you will become a Buddha. It is both unwise to reject the Buddha or to consider Buddhism secterian. The Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrayana are all part of the Single Buddha Vehicle, all in One, and simply preached as three as an Expedient Means, but there are not two nor three vehicles, there being the One, the Ekayana. So if one wants to make quick progress, it's important to not make jokes about other forms of Buddhism or Traditions, because you may just be disparaging a Buddha, and that is an offense. For good Spiritual Progress it's very important to carry around Bodhi Seeds of Bodhicitta as opposed to offenses that tear and stray the mind. The Buddha is the Truth, and His Compassion is the greatest gift. To receive this Gift of Truth one must have Faith in the Buddha's following, the Buddha, and Their and His Teachings. Om. Without you matching the Compassion and Metta to that of Gautama Buddha, you will have to wait until you do to become fully Enlightened. But you'll get there, it's a thrill, it's a rush, and it's no Path of confusion. So listen to the true words of the Tathagata. Those are the important ones.

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 2:50 pm
by cappuccino
Mahabrahma wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 6:50 am I've met a number of Awakened people. … my goal is Higher than that. I don't believe Nirvana is a true extinction.
You probably met zero

There is nothing higher than Nirvana

Of course it is extinction

Re: have you met a Streanwinner?

Posted: Wed Feb 01, 2023 4:00 pm
by Mahabrahma
Shariputra, you should know
that at the start I took a vow,
hoping to make all persons
equal to me, without any distinction between us,
and what I long ago hoped for
has now been fulfilled.
I have converted all living beings
and caused them all to enter the Buddha way.
If when I encounter living beings
I were in all cases to teach them the Buddha way,
those without wisdom would become confused
and in their bewilderment would fail to accept my teachings.
I know that such living beings have never in the past cultivated good roots
but have stubbornly clung to the five desires,
and their folly and craving have given rise to affliction.
Their desires are the cause
whereby they fall into the three evil paths,
revolving wheel-like through the six realms of existence
and undergoing every sort of suffering and pain.
Having received a tiny form in the womb,
in existence after existence they constantly grow to maturity.
Persons of meager virtue and small merit,
they are troubled and beset by manifold sufferings.
They stray into the dense forest of mistaken views,
debating as to what exists and what does not,
and in the end cling to such views,
embracing all sixty-two of them.
They are profoundly committed to false and empty doctrines,
holding firmly to them, unable to set them aside.
Arrogant and puffed up with self-importance,
fawning and envious, insincere in mind,
for a thousand, ten thousand, a million kalpas
they will not hear the Buddha's name,
nor will they hear the correct Law--
such people are difficult to save.
For these reasons, Shariputra,
I have for their sake established expedient means,
preaching the way that ends all suffering.
And showing them nirvana.
But although I preach nirvana,
this is not a true extinction.
All phenomena from the very first
have of themselves constantly borne the marks of
tranquil extinction.
Once the sons of the Buddha have carried out this path,
then in a future existence they will be able to become Buddhas.
I have employed the power of expedient means
to unfold and demonstrate this doctrine of three vehicles,
but the World-Honored Ones, every one of them,
all preach the single vehicle way.
Now before this great assembly
I must clear away all doubts and perplexities.
There is no discrepancy in the words of the Buddhas,
there is only the one vehicle, not two.
For numberless kalpas in the past
countless Buddhas who have now entered extinction,
a hundred, thousand, ten thousand, million types
in numbers incapable of calculation-
such World-Honored Ones,
using different types of causes, similes, and parables,
the power of countless expedient means,
have expounded the characteristics of teachings.
These World-Honored Ones
have all preached the doctrine of the single vehicle,
converting countless living beings
and causing them to enter the Buddha way.
-The Lotus Sutra, Chapter 2.

Maybe you can gain some wisdom there. Hopefully you'll be okay.