What is pursuing possessions with possessions?

[TRobinson465]

Isn't that why the central banks gave up the gold standard and decide to print/make money out of thin air? The US printed trillions and gave out to its people during the pandemic. Isn't this free money?
How it does this is by coercing the Saudis to only accept USD when they sell oil. The USD becomes the defacto world currency.
Now with all this money sloshing around, prices go up and the only way to slow down the inflation is to increase the interest rates.

Money should be used in exchange for products and services.
When I invest and get dividends, that seems legit.
But if I invest in crypto, it is more a case of money pursuing more money ie. speculative activity.
If I lend you money and expect to get interest, that too is a case of pursuing possessions with possesions, like collateral loans etc.

You're not wrong about the printing money, but it has nothing to do with money lending is what im saying. money lending existed back when they used wheat as a form of trade. its a separate matter

And no, the central banks did not give up the gold standard, only the US central bank did. After WWII currencies were pegged to the dollar and the dollar was pegged to gold. But the US could not mine gold fast enough to keep up with the growing population/economy and need for more dollars so we cheated and printed more dollars than there was gold reserves. Other countries were taking advantage of us when we they found out and started trading in thier dollars for gold, draining our gold reserves from fort knox. America wasnt willing to put up with it, especially since it was countries like France doing it, which American tax payers literally foot the bill to rebuild mostly for free after saving them in WWII since we were the only major power not destroyed after the war. so we switched to fiat. to prop up our currency we made a deal with Saudi arabia that we will protect them and supply them with military equipment in exchange for them only taking US dollars for oil, it was not coercion but a voluntary treaty. The only reason america saved kuwait in Desert Storm was because the saudi royal family literally asked us to in accordance with our treaty because saddam hussien didnt like the saudi royal family and he was dangerously close to them after taking kuwait.

The US controlling the worlds reserve currency and being able to print a lot more than any other country without negative consequences has benefits, its essentially the same as if the world was on the gold standard and one country controlled all the worlds gold mines. Gold is not some magical thing that has inherent value, its value comes from supply and demand just like fiat currency and everything else. But id much rather have america control the worlds gold mines than Russia or communist china, even if i wasnt American. Im sure south korea, taiwan, australia and all of free europe prefer the keys be in our hands than russia or chinas as well. Also, thats also not relevent to the free money thing. im pretty sure other rich countries gave thier citizens free money during the pandemic as well, mostly thru bond financing partially paid for by printing the money.

I agree with you that crypto is speculative and essentially relies on the greater fool theory, that someone else is stupider than you and will pay a higher price for a worthless asset than you did, and is probably wrong livelihood, which is why i shy away from crypto. I do not see the difference between investing in a business and getting dividends and lending money to businesses at interest. either way your trading money for money. The businesses only give you the dividends because when you buy thier stock your lending them money to grow thier business. I see literally no difference between investing in dividend stocks and money lending other than the terms of how the lender gets the money back with profit. Even islamic finance is the same as money lending, muslim banks still make a profit, they lend you money with the promise that you pay a larger fixed amount back to them or that they get some kind of profit sharing on your business. I dont see how interest in particular is especially nefarious when all other forms of capital trading are fine.

[pegembara]

I dont see how interest in particular is especially nefarious when all other forms of capital trading are fine.

It's a form of possession pursuing possession.

One extreme example is loan sharking. Making loads of money from money. Better than gambling. Some borrow from loan sharks to settle their gambling debts - another example.

Interest is income from the 'service' of lending money.

Any transaction that involves interest will necessarily hurt one of the two sides; it is essentially a gamble, which is also prohibited by Islam.

Muslims consider interest as a modern equivalent to Riba; that is an income that is not earned or is unfair. The main problem with Riba is that from the very start it represents an unfair situation for one of the two parties in a business transaction or loss. Regardless of the circumstances, Muslims consider that the very concept of an interest rate is inherently unjust either to the lender or the receiver. Usury, the common translation for Riba, is simply an excessively high interest rate.

Since an excessively low interest rate would also expose the lender to a loss, Muslims consider that interest is not congruent with an equal distribution of income. Any transaction that involves interest will necessarily hurt one of the two sides; it is essentially a gamble, which is also prohibited by Islam.

Another problem with the concept of interest is that it is an earning that is not based on whether the capital was used or not. It is not earned nor deserved, and comes from an imaginary source. Muslims reject earnings that have absolutely no real value to the community or to the real world. Riba forces the debtor and, indirectly, the community, to take a financial risk. Interest inherently results in unfair income distribution and guarantees that the people that already have capital will earn money regardless of their investment or business. An example of the hurtful effects of interest rate manipulations can be clearly seen in the global financial crashes of 2008 and 2009.

Muslims consider that Riba is not only an oppressive practice, it also involves exploiting those in need. A fundamental part of being a Muslim involves that those who have wealth need to assist those that do not. Involving a guaranteed income from the loans, regardless of the result of the business venture or investment, is an unfair practice. Muslims would consider it fair if both parties earned an income based on the profit of the investment, rather than from an imaginary, unearned source. A society in which the wealth is accumulated only among those that are already wealthy increases the difference between classes. It also restricts wealth circulation, since lenders would only lend money to those that can pay the interest rates. Islamic economics considers that a healthy economic system exists in a state of balance between those that consume and those that produce. In an Islamic economic system, practices such as interest-free lending, charity, profit sharing, and restrictions on legitimate ways to gain returns on capital help fix this imbalance that has become such a severe problem in traditional capitalism. Interest allows a certain social class to gain income from their capital without contributing to society at all. A society in this state ultimately stagnates and starves from their lack of contribution.

[Jack19990101]

imo

Gain for gain, is in context to compare of 'Gain to sustain'.
with this spirit or principle, it is against accumulating a lot.

We make some earnings, then stop voluntarily. Devote more time to practice.

As to how much to store, to stash, it is a subjective decision.
It is probably progressively decreasing, once we drop the fear of 'rainy days' (health, death, incidents, so on).

It is known that Arahants don't stash at all.

[TRobinson465]

I dont see how interest in particular is especially nefarious when all other forms of capital trading are fine.

It's a form of possession pursuing possession.

One extreme example is loan sharking. Making loads of money from money. Better than gambling. Some borrow from loan sharks to settle their gambling debts - another example.

Interest is income from the 'service' of lending money.

Any transaction that involves interest will necessarily hurt one of the two sides; it is essentially a gamble, which is also prohibited by Islam.

Muslims consider interest as a modern equivalent to Riba; that is an income that is not earned or is unfair. The main problem with Riba is that from the very start it represents an unfair situation for one of the two parties in a business transaction or loss. Regardless of the circumstances, Muslims consider that the very concept of an interest rate is inherently unjust either to the lender or the receiver. Usury, the common translation for Riba, is simply an excessively high interest rate.

Since an excessively low interest rate would also expose the lender to a loss, Muslims consider that interest is not congruent with an equal distribution of income. Any transaction that involves interest will necessarily hurt one of the two sides; it is essentially a gamble, which is also prohibited by Islam.

Another problem with the concept of interest is that it is an earning that is not based on whether the capital was used or not. It is not earned nor deserved, and comes from an imaginary source. Muslims reject earnings that have absolutely no real value to the community or to the real world. Riba forces the debtor and, indirectly, the community, to take a financial risk. Interest inherently results in unfair income distribution and guarantees that the people that already have capital will earn money regardless of their investment or business. An example of the hurtful effects of interest rate manipulations can be clearly seen in the global financial crashes of 2008 and 2009.

Muslims consider that Riba is not only an oppressive practice, it also involves exploiting those in need. A fundamental part of being a Muslim involves that those who have wealth need to assist those that do not. Involving a guaranteed income from the loans, regardless of the result of the business venture or investment, is an unfair practice. Muslims would consider it fair if both parties earned an income based on the profit of the investment, rather than from an imaginary, unearned source. A society in which the wealth is accumulated only among those that are already wealthy increases the difference between classes. It also restricts wealth circulation, since lenders would only lend money to those that can pay the interest rates. Islamic economics considers that a healthy economic system exists in a state of balance between those that consume and those that produce. In an Islamic economic system, practices such as interest-free lending, charity, profit sharing, and restrictions on legitimate ways to gain returns on capital help fix this imbalance that has become such a severe problem in traditional capitalism. Interest allows a certain social class to gain income from their capital without contributing to society at all. A society in this state ultimately stagnates and starves from their lack of contribution.

Yes but isnt investing also possession pursuing possession? Loan sharking and predatory lending is obviously bad. I was talking about loans made in fair practice.

Thats an interesting perspective from islam, but i dont see anything in theravada buddhist texts using the logic. Although i do agree that logic has some merit as to why interest is different from profit sharing, but some people want loans they can pay off and not to share profit. Id much rather take on student loans than share my post graduation income with banks, although i guess thats circumstantial as some ppl would still prefer profit sharing.

[Jack19990101]

imo
trade or interest, dividends, are not at fault - as long as it is for sustain, not for hoarding.

[pegembara]

You borrow money from a bank to buy a property and sell off when there is profit. The bank interest will hopefully be less than the capital gain.
The next buyer does the same thing trying to flip the property.
As a result, those who truly need housing can no longer afford this.

You no longer buy a house to stay in or rent out.
Isn't this possession pursuing possession?
Some would call this investing in the property market though.
Same with investing in the stock market for capital gains where what happens is an exchange of wealth ... someone's gain is another's loss.

The wealth comes not from selling goods(eg. iPhones) or providing a service(being a Uber driver). Things that are seemingly useful to society.

[Johann]

You borrow money from a bank to buy a property and sell off when there is profit.

How can one be sure to ever be able to pay back? Why does one wants a property, knowing breaking apart of everything?

The bank interest will hopefully be less than the capital gain.
The next buyer does the same thing trying to flip the property.
As a result, those who truly need housing can no longer afford this.

There is nothing such as an inherent right, and never can the desire, need, be stilled. By virtue and generosity wealth is attained. If plundered, or stolen or build upon promises not possible to keep, it would not last long, good householder.

The wealth comes not from selling goods(eg. iPhones) or providing a service(being a Uber driver). Things that are seemingly useful to society.

Wealth is obtained by good labor, based on Sila. There is no poorness by virtue or generosity obtained. And no lasting wealth for one without having gained wisdom as well.

Both, one current wealthy, or terrible poor, is wise to take it simply on trust, if not seen himself.

[pegembara]

You borrow money from a bank to buy a property and sell off when there is profit.

How can one be sure to ever be able to pay back? Why does one wants a property, knowing breaking apart of everything?

The body breaks up for sure. But that does not mean there is no need for security even if temporary. Not everyone can rely on dana especially for the householders. Before turning to spiritual development, it is necessary to have a stable income to not starve.

"There is the case where the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — provides himself with pleasure & satisfaction, and maintains that pleasure rightly. He provides his mother & father with pleasure & satisfaction, and maintains that pleasure rightly. He provides his children, his wife, his slaves, servants, & assistants with pleasure & satisfaction, and maintains that pleasure rightly. This is the first benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — provides his friends & associates with pleasure & satisfaction, and maintains that pleasure rightly. This is the second benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — wards off calamities coming from fire, flood, kings, thieves, or hateful heirs, and keeps himself safe. This is the third benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — performs the five oblations: to relatives, guests, the dead, kings, & devas. This is the fourth benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

"Furthermore, the disciple of the noble ones — using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained — institutes offerings of supreme aim, heavenly, resulting in happiness, leading to heaven, given to brahmans & contemplatives who abstain from intoxication & heedlessness, who endure all things with patience & humility, each taming himself, each restraining himself, each taking himself to Unbinding. This is the fifth benefit that can be obtained from wealth.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

"If it so happens that, when a disciple of the noble ones obtains these five benefits from wealth, his wealth goes to depletion, the thought occurs to him, 'Even though my wealth has gone to depletion, I have obtained the five benefits that can be obtained from wealth,' and he feels no remorse. If it so happens that, when a disciple of the noble ones obtains these five benefits from wealth, his wealth increases, the thought occurs to him, 'I have obtained the five benefits that can be obtained from wealth, and my wealth has increased,' and he feels no remorse. So he feels no remorse in either case."


'My wealth has been enjoyed,
my dependents supported,
protected from calamities by me.
I have given supreme offerings
& performed the five oblations.
I have provided for the virtuous,
the restrained,
followers of the holy life.
For whatever aim a wise householder
would desire wealth,
that aim I have attained.
I have done what will not lead to future distress.'
When this is recollected by a mortal,
a person established in the Dhamma of the Noble Ones,
he is praised in this life
and, after death, rejoices in heaven.

[Johann]

Yes, good householder, and it's not wise to think that certain monks do not know what they talk about.

...using the wealth earned through his efforts & enterprise, amassed through the strength of his arm, and piled up through the sweat of his brow, righteous wealth righteously gained...

My person does not think that there are many out here knowing even to this extent, how could they know the fruits of them?

You know, it's really not enough to just borrow, or copy not really personal given, not really right obtained or "paid" for it, to understand the Dhamma. It's all just fiction merged into ones field of defilements, into ones instabil house.

And no, it's not necessary to gain wealth before doing further, since actually Dukkha is the cause of Saddha arising. That's just what your Brahmans sell yours on debt, such ideas.

[TRobinson465]

You borrow money from a bank to buy a property and sell off when there is profit. The bank interest will hopefully be less than the capital gain.
The next buyer does the same thing trying to flip the property.
As a result, those who truly need housing can no longer afford this.

You no longer buy a house to stay in or rent out.
Isn't this possession pursuing possession?
Some would call this investing in the property market though.
Same with investing in the stock market for capital gains where what happens is an exchange of wealth ... someone's gain is another's loss.

The wealth comes not from selling goods(eg. iPhones) or providing a service(being a Uber driver). Things that are seemingly useful to society.

Absolutely. Speculation is a parasitic practice on society and is probably bad livelihood. But it's not like every loan made is for speculation. Sometimes it's for the person to live in the house. Sometimes it's to start an honest business. Lending is not inherently always bad the way alcohol and weapons is.

[pegembara]

[Gwi II]

Bet (material possessions)

Casino, share, jackpot, dice (gamble),
football beeting, pachinko, lottery, etc.