‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

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Kumara
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‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Kumara »

You can take this as me cautioning the Buddhist community. Having been active in the Buddhist circle for 30 years, I’ve met some ‘Buddhist’ teachers who knowingly lead their followers into more suffering, while having them believe the opposite.

Full article: https://justpaste.it/budteach
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Johann
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Johann »

Kumara wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 5:45 am You can take this as me cautioning the Buddhist community. Having been active in the Buddhist circle for 30 years, I’ve met some ‘Buddhist’ teachers who knowingly lead their followers into more suffering, while having them believe the opposite.

Full article: https://justpaste.it/budteach
And what might one make sure that not actually a crazy (caught by defilements) has put that not given on merely trade or public domain, Bhante? Where do "good" get images from they share?

It's to that extent, Vinaya, Sila, and freedom from dependency on disciples foremost, that impure and pure can be distinguished, or?
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Johann
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Johann »

Btw., reading this "trauma epic", Bhante might be possible not aware that the Buddha even forbade his monks to teach if not showing signs of respect, how can a disciple of the Buddha tell laypeople that strong devotion is wrong?

Nothing more for the damage of spirituality as to foster wrong pride and destroy right delight.
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Meggo »

There is a book about this calles "Saints & Psychopaths" by Bill Hamilton.
SarathW
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by SarathW »

Hello Bhante.
This is not something new you find tons of them in Sri Lanka.

But the problem is not many criticize those teachers who try to explore true Buddhism.

:D
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Kumara
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Kumara »

Meggo wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 4:47 pm There is a book about this calles "Saints & Psychopaths" by Bill Hamilton.
I know. I was introduced to it by the author himself. :-)
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zerotime
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by zerotime »

Hi Bhante,

Are there Suttas showing a requirement to be an ariya to teach others?
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Radix
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Radix »

zerotime wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:45 pm Are there Suttas showing a requirement to be an ariya to teach others?
Are there suttas showing a requirement to submit to teachers whom one doesn't consider ariyas?
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zerotime
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by zerotime »

Radix wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 1:13 pm Are there suttas showing a requirement to submit to teachers whom one doesn't consider ariyas?
I ask because I fully agree with some aspects of what V.Kumara writes. Also I have checked a certain degree of "self cult approach" in some teachers.

Besides that, I can remember some Suttas with further explanations about some requeriments. In example:
SN 12.16 Dhammakathiko Sutta
The Teacher of the Dhamma.
translated from the Pali by Maurice O'Connell Walshe

[A monk said:] "'Dhamma-teacher, Dhamma-teacher' they say, Lord."

"If, monk, anyone teaches a doctrine of disenchantment[1] with decay-and-death, of dispassion[2] [leading to] its cessation, that suffices for him to be called a monk who teaches Dhamma.[3]

"If anyone has trained himself in this disenchantment with decay-and-death, in dispassion[4] [leading to] its cessation, that suffices for him to be called a monk who is trained in what is in conformity with Dhamma.[5]

"If anyone, through disenchantment with decay-and-death, through dispassion [leading to] its cessation, is liberated from grasping, that suffices for him to be called one who has attained Nibbaana in this life."[6]

[The same three distinctions are made in respect of birth... ignorance]

Notes
1. Nibbidaa: sometimes rendered "revulsion," but this suffers from the defect of suggesting too strong an emotional reaction. "Disenchantment" covers it better.
2. Viraaga is quite literally "dis-passion." The syntax of this sentence is rather curious, but the meaning is clear enough.
3. This gives a clear indication of the minimum standard required for anyone (today, in the West, often a lay person) setting up as a teacher of Buddhism. It denotes a "worldling" (puthujjana, i.e., one who has not "entered the stream") who has the basic intellectual knowledge mentioned here.
4. This one is a sekha "trainee," i.e., one who has at least "entered the stream" (and thus knows in part from experience), but is not an Arahant.
5. His training is proceeding along the right path.
6. He is an asekha ("non-trainee," i.e., one who has finished his training), an Arahant.

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/SN ... hiko_Sutta
also I can remember the existence of a Sutta with an episode in where an stream-winner is very cautious to teach others, talking with all sorts of preventions. This episode shows an strong contrast regarding some teachers of our times.

However, there are also Suttas like the Dhammakathiko Sutta, in where we read:
"'Dhamma-teacher, Dhamma-teacher' they say, Lord."

"If, monk, anyone teaches a doctrine of disenchantment[1] with decay-and-death, of dispassion[2] [leading to] its cessation, that suffices for him to be called a monk who teaches Dhamma.[3]

"If anyone has trained himself in this disenchantment with decay-and-death, in dispassion[4] [leading to] its cessation, that suffices for him to be called a monk who is trained in what is in conformity with Dhamma.[5]

"If anyone, through disenchantment with decay-and-death, through dispassion [leading to] its cessation, is liberated from grasping, that suffices for him to be called one who has attained Nibbaana in this life."[6]

[The same three distinctions are made in respect of birth... ignorance]
https://accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn ... .wlsh.html
because here maybe the requirements can sounds lower than the eradication of first 3 fetters.

Therefore, I was asking for more related Suttas about this issue.


(And thanks V.Kumara for your book on Jhanas. It is a very interesting (and needed) view into that old and polarized discussion :anjali: )
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Kumara
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Kumara »

zerotime wrote: Fri Jan 13, 2023 12:45 pm Are there Suttas showing a requirement to be an ariya to teach others?
Not that I know of.
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by pegembara »

Better the teachings to look out for.
"Upali, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities do not lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, nor to Unbinding': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

AN 7.80
"Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

AN 8.53
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Kumara »

pegembara wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:15 am Better the teachings to look out for.
"Upali, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities do not lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, nor to Unbinding': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

AN 7.80
"Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

AN 8.53
I don't think you understand how it's like being under the influence of a psychopath.
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by SarathW »

Kumara wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 9:49 am
pegembara wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 2:15 am Better the teachings to look out for.
"Upali, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities do not lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, nor to Unbinding': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to utter disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

AN 7.80
"Gotami, the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to passion, not to dispassion; to being fettered, not to being unfettered; to accumulating, not to shedding; to self-aggrandizement, not to modesty; to discontent, not to contentment; to entanglement, not to seclusion; to laziness, not to aroused persistence; to being burdensome, not to being unburdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is not the Dhamma, this is not the Vinaya, this is not the Teacher's instruction.'

"As for the qualities of which you may know, 'These qualities lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome': You may definitely hold, 'This is the Dhamma, this is the Vinaya, this is the Teacher's instruction.'"

AN 8.53
I don't think you understand how it's like being under the influence of a psychopath.
Could you elaborate on this, please?
Is this your experience with some of your teachers you had?
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zerotime
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by zerotime »

in order to be free of a psychopathic control impeding the right development in the Path, the sources show how the moral can be understood with two turns, or in a more flexible way. Sariputta and Mogallana were engaged in an strategy of deception to rescue the disciples of the Buddha.
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Re: ‘Buddhist’ Teachers to Watch Out For

Post by Kumara »

zerotime wrote: Sat Jan 14, 2023 3:08 pm in order to be free of a psychopathic control impeding the right development in the Path, the sources show how the moral can be understood with two turns, or in a more flexible way. Sariputta and Mogallana were engaged in an strategy of deception to rescue the disciples of the Buddha.
Rather weird to say arahants "were engaged in an strategy of deception", don't you think so?
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