Sati in Hard Jhana

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Alex123
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Sati in Hard Jhana

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

Re-reading the suttas I've stumbled on this question:
In the standard stock phrase of the jhanas, the sati (mindfulness) appears in 3rd Jhana and in the 4th Jhana it reaches the state of "purity of equanimity & mindfulness".

If one is totally absorbed into one object, unable to make any sense at all of what is happening while one is in that state, what sort of "mindfulness" (sati) is there?

Thanks,
:namaste:
Last edited by Alex123 on Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:54 pm
If one is totally absorbed into one object, unable to make any sense at all of what is happening while one is in that state, what sort of "mindfulness" (sati) is there?

Thanks,
:namaste:
I don’t get the impression from the traditional view that one can’t make sense of what’s going on. You are aware of being in the absorption, it’s just all you are aware of is the Jhana itself. It’s not a mindless “zombie like” state as some people claim, since there are 6 senses in Buddhism not 5.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Alex123
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:57 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:54 pm
If one is totally absorbed into one object, unable to make any sense at all of what is happening while one is in that state, what sort of "mindfulness" (sati) is there?

Thanks,
:namaste:
I don’t get the impression from the traditional view that one can’t make sense of what’s going on. You are aware of being in the absorption, it’s just all you are aware of is the Jhana itself.

Can you be aware of the body, remember what was said and done long time ago?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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On sati in the 3rd Jhana
172. Now, as to mindful and fully aware: here, he remembers (sarati), thus he is mindful (sata). He has full awareness (sampajánáti), thus he is fully aware (sampajána). This is mindfulness and full awareness stated as personal attributes. Herein, mindfulness has the characteristic of remembering. Its function is not to forget. It is manifested as guarding. Full awareness has the characteristic of non-confusion. Its function is to investigate (judge). It is manifested as scrutiny.

173. Herein, although this mindfulness and this full awareness exist in the earlier jhánas as well—for one who is forgetful and not fully aware does not attain even access, let alone absorption—yet, because of the [comparative] grossness of those jhánas, the mind’s going is easy [there], like that of a man on [level] ground, and so the functions of mindfulness and full awareness are not evident in them. [163] But it is only stated here because the subtlety of this jhána, which is due to the abandoning of the gross factors, requires that the mind’s going always includes the functions of mindfulness and full awareness, like that of a man on a razor’s edge.

174. What is more, just as a calf that follows a cow returns to the cow when taken away from her if not prevented, so too, when this third jhána is led away from happiness, it would return to happiness if not prevented by mindfulness and full awareness, and would rejoin happiness. And besides, beings are greedy for bliss, and this kind of bliss is exceedingly sweet since there is none greater. But here there is non-greed for the bliss owing to the influence of the mindfulness and full awareness, not for any other reason. And so it should also be understood that it is stated only here in order to emphasize this meaning too.
Visuddhimagga - CHAPTER IV The Earth Kasina
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:57 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:57 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:54 pm
If one is totally absorbed into one object, unable to make any sense at all of what is happening while one is in that state, what sort of "mindfulness" (sati) is there?

Thanks,
:namaste:
I don’t get the impression from the traditional view that one can’t make sense of what’s going on. You are aware of being in the absorption, it’s just all you are aware of is the Jhana itself.

Can you be aware of the body, remember what was said and done long time ago?
Aware of the physical body no, on the traditional view. Remember, yes.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Scabrella
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:54 pm what sort of "mindfulness" (sati) is there?
Hello. What does "mindfulness" mean to you? I think you first need to define "mindfulness".
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:54 pm If one is totally absorbed into one object, unable to make any sense at all of what is happening...
Interesting idea. What is the source of this idea of "unable to make any sense at all of what is happening"?
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Alex123
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Scabrella wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:21 pm Hello. What does "mindfulness" mean to you? I think you first need to define "mindfulness".
1) Memory
2) Not forgetting the attention to the four frames (body, feelings, mind, phenomena) and seeing arising & ceasing of them.
Alex wrote:
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:54 pm Interesting idea. What is the source of this idea of "unable to make any sense at all of what is happening"?
For example, one of my favourite (if not the favourite) meditation books:


"Because of the perfect one-pointedness and fixed attention, one loses the faculty of perspective within jhāna. Comprehension relies on comparison—relating this to that, here to there, now with then. In jhāna, all that is perceived is an unmoving, enveloping, nondual bliss that allows no space for the arising of perspective. It is like that puzzle where one is shown a photograph of a well-known object from an unusual angle, and one has to guess what it is. It is very difficult to identify some objects without looking at them from different angles. When perspective is removed, so is comprehension. Thus in jhāna not only is there no sense of time but also there is no comprehension of what is going on. At the time, one will not even know which jhāna one is in. All one knows is great bliss, unmoving, unchanging, for unknown lengths of time." - Landmark of all Jhanas section from Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm (I love some of his talks!)

How does the above counts as mindfulness, really. Attentiveness/Alertness to the present moment, sure, but that isn't sati.

Furthermore while we are at it, "unmoving, enveloping, nondual bliss" sounds like it can be a source of Atta view and view of permanence. Couldn't one who reached such a state declare that he has found the way to the Atman? Is that what has happened to meditating Hindu wanderers (perhaps Alara Kalama, Rama etc).

:namaste:
Scabrella
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:45 pm 1) Memory
2) Not forgetting the attention to the four frames (body, feelings, mind, phenomena) and seeing arising & ceasing of them.
Memory/not forgetting cannot mean "seeing arising & ceasing".
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:54 pm "Because of the perfect one-pointedness and fixed attention, one loses the faculty of perspective within jhāna. Comprehension relies on comparison—relating this to that, here to there, now with then. In jhāna, all that is perceived is an unmoving, enveloping, nondual bliss that allows no space for the arising of perspective. It is like that puzzle where one is shown a photograph of a well-known object from an unusual angle, and one has to guess what it is. It is very difficult to identify some objects without looking at them from different angles. When perspective is removed, so is comprehension. Thus in jhāna not only is there no sense of time but also there is no comprehension of what is going on. At the time, one will not even know which jhāna one is in. All one knows is great bliss, unmoving, unchanging, for unknown lengths of time." - Landmark of all Jhanas section from Mindfulness, Bliss and Beyond by Ajahn Brahm (I love some of his talks!)
Very difficult to understand what this quote is saying because it does say there is "perceiving" and "knowing". Is English not the first language of this writer? Or is this a translation from another language? The word "comprehension" may be a poor word choice.
SarathW
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Mindfulness (sati): this is alertness, which makes us aware of what is happening to us, from moment to moment, through the five physical senses and the mind. Mindfulness is essential to insight meditation, when it must be conjoined with a clear comprehension of the suitability, purpose, and conformity with reality of any action. Then it is called right mindfulness (sammaa sati). Usually the average person acts without any form of mindfulness; his acts are prompted by force of habit. Right mindfulness has two functions: one is to increase the power of recollection and the other is to evaluate what is wholesome and what is unwholesome. Right mindfulness is a spiritual faculty that maintains a proper balance of the other faculties — faith, energy, concentration and wisdom.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... n%20object.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Alex123
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Here is what mindfulness & alertness is:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
AN4.41
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robertk
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Alex123 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:11 pm Here is what mindfulness & alertness is:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
AN4.41
And that type of concentration is nothing to do with mundane jhana.
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Alex123
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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robertk wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:28 pm
Alex123 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:11 pm Here is what mindfulness & alertness is:
"And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness? There is the case where feelings are known to the monk as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Perceptions are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. Thoughts are known to him as they arise, known as they persist, known as they subside. This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to mindfulness & alertness.
AN4.41
And that type of concentration is nothing to do with mundane jhana.
So, in "mundane" jhana one doesn't know feelings/perception as they arise, persist and subside?
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Alex123
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Scabrella wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:21 pm
Alex123 wrote: Tue Jan 10, 2023 10:54 pm what sort of "mindfulness" (sati) is there?
Hello. What does "mindfulness" mean to you? I think you first need to define "mindfulness".
Even better quote:
“And how, bhikkhus, is a bhikkhu mindful? Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, removing covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. He dwells contemplating feelings in feelings … mind in mind … mental phenomena in mental phenomena, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, removing covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. It is in this way, bhikkhus, that a bhikkhu is mindful.
SN47.2 Bhikkhu Bodhi Translation
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Alex123
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:48 am
Mindfulness (sati): this is alertness, which makes us aware of what is happening to us, from moment to moment,
Mindfulness is one thing, alertness is another (also a crucial factor). What the quote describes above, and some teachings on "minfulness" seems to lean heavily toward alertness.
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robertk
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Re: Sati in Hard Jhana

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Alex123 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:33 pm
robertk wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:28 pm
Alex123 wrote: Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:11 pm Here is what mindfulness & alertness is:

And that type of concentration is nothing to do with mundane jhana.
So, in "mundane" jhana one doesn't know feelings/perception as they arise, persist and subside?
That is correct.
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