"Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Buddhist ethical conduct including the Five Precepts (Pañcasikkhāpada), and Eightfold Ethical Conduct (Aṭṭhasīla).
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Kumara
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:47 am I wonder, if Sila is such a trifling thing that just make sure behaviour is well controlled, that would be too shallow. A baby of any race, by himself/herself, couldn't kill, steal, have sexual misconduct, tell verbal lies, and drink alcoholic beverages.

Does that mean babies are observing five precepts automatically since birth?
A baby doesn't control, right?
Ontheway
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by Ontheway »

Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:55 am
Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:47 am I wonder, if Sila is such a trifling thing that just make sure behaviour is well controlled, that would be too shallow. A baby of any race, by himself/herself, couldn't kill, steal, have sexual misconduct, tell verbal lies, and drink alcoholic beverages.

Does that mean babies are observing five precepts automatically since birth?
A baby doesn't control, right?
Yes, he/she don't exert control, but his/her behaviour is of that not violating the five precepts by nature. Does that mean sila to you?

The definition of behaviour: The way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially towards others. (Oxford Dictionary)
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Kumara
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:58 am
Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:55 am
Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:47 am I wonder, if Sila is such a trifling thing that just make sure behaviour is well controlled, that would be too shallow. A baby of any race, by himself/herself, couldn't kill, steal, have sexual misconduct, tell verbal lies, and drink alcoholic beverages.

Does that mean babies are observing five precepts automatically since birth?
A baby doesn't control, right?
Yes, he/she don't exert control, but his/her behaviour is of that not violating the five precepts by nature. Does that mean sila to you?

The definition of behaviour: The way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially towards others. (Oxford Dictionary)
Definitely not. The kamma is in the intention, right?
Ontheway
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by Ontheway »

Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:09 am
Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:58 am
Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:55 am

A baby doesn't control, right?
Yes, he/she don't exert control, but his/her behaviour is of that not violating the five precepts by nature. Does that mean sila to you?

The definition of behaviour: The way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially towards others. (Oxford Dictionary)
Definitely not. The kamma is in the intention, right?
Yes, Lord Buddha did say "Cetanaham bhikkhave kammam vadami".

Then I think mere English word "behaviour" cannot deliver the full meaning of "Sila".

Why not "Virtue"?

According to Merriam-webster dictionary, "Virtue" is defined as "conformity to a standard of right; morality, a particular moral excellence." Wouldn't that be more suitable?
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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SarathW
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

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Does the well behave criminal observe Sila?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:15 am Does the well behave criminal observe Sila?
Well behave in compliance to jail rules?

That is not Sila.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Kumara
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by Kumara »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:14 am Then I think mere English word "behaviour" cannot deliver the full meaning of "Sila".

Why not "Virtue"?

According to Merriam-webster dictionary, "Virtue" is defined as "conformity to a standard of right; morality, a particular moral excellence." Wouldn't that be more suitable?
I suppose you didn't watch the video?
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by SarathW »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:17 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:15 am Does the well behave criminal observe Sila?
Well behave in compliance to jail rules?

That is not Sila.
According to venerable Kumara it is Sila even if the criminal is planning his next robbery.
:stirthepot:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by Ontheway »

Kumara wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:18 am
Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:14 am Then I think mere English word "behaviour" cannot deliver the full meaning of "Sila".

Why not "Virtue"?

According to Merriam-webster dictionary, "Virtue" is defined as "conformity to a standard of right; morality, a particular moral excellence." Wouldn't that be more suitable?
I suppose you didn't watch the video?
To be frank, I didn't watch the video. But just curious about the rendering of "behaviour" term to be the meaning of Sila, since the title indicated so.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Ontheway
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:25 am
Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:17 am
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:15 am Does the well behave criminal observe Sila?
Well behave in compliance to jail rules?

That is not Sila.
According to venerable Kumara it is Sila even if the criminal is planning his next robbery.
:stirthepot:
Maybe we need to examine further. No need to rush for a conclusion yet.

Nowadays there are many monks or layfollowers inputting new interpretation of Dhamma..... As long as we equipped with the Pali Tipitaka and Atthakatha, we can try differentiate.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by mjaviem »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:47 am I wonder, if Sila is such a trifling thing that just make sure behaviour is well controlled, that would be too shallow. A baby of any race, by himself/herself, couldn't kill, steal, have sexual misconduct, tell verbal lies, and drink alcoholic beverages.

Does that mean babies are observing five precepts automatically since birth?
There's no abstention in babies. You need to abstain from unwholesome speech, action, and livelihood to observe sīla and babies are not abstaining from this.
Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:14 am Yes, Lord Buddha did say "Cetanaham bhikkhave kammam vadami".

Then I think mere English word "behaviour" cannot deliver the full meaning of "Sila".

Why not "Virtue"?

According to Merriam-webster dictionary, "Virtue" is defined as "conformity to a standard of right; morality, a particular moral excellence." Wouldn't that be more suitable?
Sīla is not a standard someone decided right. Sīla is the right thing to do. Saying behavior is not that bad since it's clearly stated in the suttas that sīla is right speech, action, and livelihood.
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:15 am Does the well behave criminal observe Sila?
Yes, unless his in jail, isolated from evreyone. In this case no, as he is not abstaining from unwholesome speech, action and livelihood.
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:25 am According to venerable Kumara it is Sila even if the criminal is planning his next robbery.
:stirthepot:
Planning a crime is the way of living of the criminals. It's not observing sīla.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Ontheway
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by Ontheway »

mjaviem wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:59 am
Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 8:47 am I wonder, if Sila is such a trifling thing that just make sure behaviour is well controlled, that would be too shallow. A baby of any race, by himself/herself, couldn't kill, steal, have sexual misconduct, tell verbal lies, and drink alcoholic beverages.

Does that mean babies are observing five precepts automatically since birth?
There's no abstention in babies. You need to abstain from unwholesome speech, action, and livelihood to observe sīla and babies are not abstaining from this.
Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:14 am Yes, Lord Buddha did say "Cetanaham bhikkhave kammam vadami".

Then I think mere English word "behaviour" cannot deliver the full meaning of "Sila".

Why not "Virtue"?

According to Merriam-webster dictionary, "Virtue" is defined as "conformity to a standard of right; morality, a particular moral excellence." Wouldn't that be more suitable?
Sīla is not a standard someone decided right. Sīla is the right thing to do. Saying behavior is not that bad since it's clearly stated in the suttas that sīla is right speech, action, and livelihood.
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:15 am Does the well behave criminal observe Sila?
Yes, unless his in jail, isolated from evreyone. In this case no, as he is not abstaining from unwholesome speech, action and livelihood.
SarathW wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 9:25 am According to venerable Kumara it is Sila even if the criminal is planning his next robbery.
:stirthepot:
Planning a crime is the way of living of the criminals. It's not observing sīla.
I disagree. The English translation word "Behaviour" is merely a reaction in response to external world. Since Sila involved intention to uphold righteousness in terms of bodily actions, verbal actions, and mental actions; then it is Virtue. Virtue seems to be a more viable English translation.


I would argue that Sila isn't just the right thing to do, but also a standard of being are to be considered as wholesome.
"Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect your own virtues: '[They are] untorn, unbroken, unspotted, unsplattered, liberating, praised by the wise, untarnished, conducive to concentration.'

- AN 11.12

Behaviour is more like just a reaction. And it is a byproduct of Virtue. That's why there is a phrase "Virtuous behaviour".
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by mjaviem »

Ontheway wrote: Fri Jan 20, 2023 12:37 pm ...
Behaviour is more like just a reaction. And it is a byproduct of Virtue. That's why there is a phrase "Virtuous behaviour".
I like virtuous behaviour. It's not any behaviour but a virtuous one.

To me the virtue is in the abstaining. But if we talk about wholesome intentions themselves, then we are talking about wisdom or paññā not sīla. Wisdom leading to a virtuous behaviour but not sīla per se.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by mjaviem »

Actually, I don't know if the virtue is in the wholesome intention of renouncing sensuality and not doing harm or in the act of abstention itself. But I think you are going to find difficulty in explaining why right intention is not part of sīla but part of paññā.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Ontheway
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Re: "Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

Post by Ontheway »

I would argue that Sila, Samadhi, and Pañña is a progressive separated experience.

Pañña will arrive when we have Jhanas.
Natthi jhānaṁ apaññassa,
paññā natthi ajhāyato;
Yamhi jhānañca paññā ca,
sa ve nibbānasantike.
- Dhammapada 372

I am discussing about the choice of translation. I think "behaviour" as English translation for Sila isn't serving the purpose.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

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