"Sīla Means Behaviour" by ​Kum​āra Bhikkhu

[Kumara]

According to venerable Kumara it is Sila even if the criminal is planning his next robbery.

Planning a crime is the way of living of the criminals. It's not observing sīla.

I'm glad someone understands what I'm saying.

[Kumara]

Then I think mere English word "behaviour" cannot deliver the full meaning of "Sila".

Why not "Virtue"?

According to Merriam-webster dictionary, "Virtue" is defined as "conformity to a standard of right; morality, a particular moral excellence." Wouldn't that be more suitable?

I suppose you didn't watch the video?

To be frank, I didn't watch the video. But just curious about the rendering of "behaviour" term to be the meaning of Sila, since the title indicated so.

From my reading of the Suttas, sila on its own often carry a positive connotation. However, it can also carry a wider meaning of "behavior", as you can find defined as the first meaning in PTS's PED.

To give a practical example here, when we see susila and dussila, it makes sense to translate them as "good behaviour" and "bad behaviour". Having them as "good virtue" and "bad virtue" just wouldn't do.

[Kumara]

Actually, I don't know if the virtue is in the wholesome intention of renouncing sensuality and not doing harm or in the act of abstention itself. But I think you are going to find difficulty in explaining why right intention is not part of sīla but part of paññā.

Not really. It's already spelt out in Cūḷavedalla Sutta (MN44):
"Right view and right intention—these states are included in the aggregate of wisdom." (MLDB)

[SarathW]

Does the well behave criminal observe Sila?

Well behave in compliance to jail rules?

That is not Sila.

Then how about a monk? if a monk only maintains an outward appearance of dignity (observe Vinaya rules) while inwardly carrying sick dirty thoughts about that beautiful young girl, according to you, has he fulfilled Sila (ie. I'm not talking about Samadhi just yet) IN BOTH letters AND spirit?

[Ontheway]

I suppose you didn't watch the video?

To be frank, I didn't watch the video. But just curious about the rendering of "behaviour" term to be the meaning of Sila, since the title indicated so.

From my reading of the Suttas, sila on its own often carry a positive connotation. However, it can also carry a wider meaning of "behavior", as you can find defined as the first meaning in PTS's PED.

To give a practical example here, when we see susila and dussila, it makes sense to translate them as "good behaviour" and "bad behaviour". Having them as "good virtue" and "bad virtue" just wouldn't do.

In that case, Bhante, I would say it depends on the context and the usage of term in different scenario. You are right in saying virtue English word cannot be used for sussila and dussila case. In term of sussila and dussila, I would suggest "wholesome conduct", "unwholesome conduct"; rather than the English word "Virtue". Just like the term "Brahma", it can be referring to the Great Deity Maha Brahma, or it carries the meaning of "nobleness" in certain words.

So, Sila should not be simply understood as behaviour. Especially when comes to Sila, Samadhi and Pañña. And I don't think it is good to simply put "Sila means Behaviour".

Like I pointed out previously, the English word behaviour is defined as the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially towards others. It can be done so with or without sincerity. For example, I worked with Japanese people before and learned their culture of 建前 (たてまえ or Tatemae), means they will treat the other person respectfully (without revealing true inner feelings), even they hold grudges against the person or even angry (maybe it explains why in a famous Japanese war song where opposing army was praised as unmatched brave heroes but in the end they will not be forgiven, only be punished with death sentence by Emperor Army). In other people's view, the Japanese person here could be understood as someone with courtesy and well-behaved. But in reality, the Japanese's mindset and inner feeling said the opposite. This is why the word "behaviour" alone don't really fit in the meaning of Sila.

"Virtue" is different, the word Virtue indicates the moral standard that upheld by a certain person with an intention that, he/she will not transgress the standard he/she sets for him/herself.

And Bhaddantacariya Buddhaghosa Thera stated in Visuddhimagga,

IN WHAT SENSE IS IT VIRTUE?

It is virtue (sìla) in the sense of composing (sìlana). What is this composing?

It is either a coordinating (samádhána), meaning non-inconsistency of bodily action, etc., due to virtuousness; or it is an upholding (upadhárana), meaning a state of basis (ádhára) owing to its serving as foundation for profitable states. For those who understand etymology admit only these two meanings.

This is what I am doubting the efficacy of rendering English word "behaviour" as a translation for Sila as indicated in your video title.

[Ontheway]

Does the well behave criminal observe Sila?

Well behave in compliance to jail rules?

That is not Sila.

Then how about a monk? if a monk only maintains an outward appearance of dignity (observe Vinaya rules) while inwardly carrying sick dirty thoughts about that beautiful young girl, according to you, has he fulfilled Sila (ie. I'm not talking about Samadhi just yet) IN BOTH letters AND spirit?

For the hypothetical situation as mentioned by you above, I don't think is possible to happen though.

In real occasion, by keeping the Vinaya precepts, the monastic can restraint his mind from a great amount of unwholesome mental actions.

Keeping Vinaya rules is no easy task. It is very very difficult for someone who mind isn't restrained. As a layman, I deeply respect all monastics who are able to keep the Vinaya rules.

[Kumara]

From my reading of the Suttas, sila on its own often carry a positive connotation. However, it can also carry a wider meaning of "behavior", as you can find defined as the first meaning in PTS's PED.

To give a practical example here, when we see susila and dussila, it makes sense to translate them as "good behaviour" and "bad behaviour". Having them as "good virtue" and "bad virtue" just wouldn't do.

In that case, Bhante, I would say it depends on the context and the usage of term in different scenario. You are right in saying virtue English word cannot be used for sussila and dussila case. In term of sussila and dussila, I would suggest "wholesome conduct", "unwholesome conduct"; rather than the English word "Virtue".

We can't translate them that way because those prefixes does not mean wholesome/unwholesome.

So, Sila should not be simply understood as behaviour. Especially when comes to Sila, Samadhi and Pañña. And I don't think it is good to simply put "Sila means Behaviour".

What you say is true in the context how the word sila is commonly used in current doctrinal Buddhism. However, when you see the word used in the Suttas, you'll find that "behaviour" is often suitable.

If you're not willing to spends the time watching the video, I suggest you at least look into PED to see some examples of what I mean.

This is what I am doubting the efficacy of rendering English word "behaviour" as a translation for Sila as indicated in your video title.

Unless you watch it, you won't understand why I titled it that way.

[zerotime]

I would argue that Sila, Samadhi, and Pañña is a progressive separated experience.
Pañña will arrive when we have Jhanas.

Just to add this summary from Nyanatiloka:

With regard to the condition of its arising one distinguishes 3 kinds of knowledge knowledge based on thinking cintā-mayā-paññā knowledge based on learning suta-mayā-paññā knowledge based on mental development bhāvanā -mayā-paññā D. 33.

- 'Based on thinking' is that knowledge which one has accquired through one's own thinking, without having learnt it from others.
- 'Based on learning' is that knowledge which one has heard from others and thus acquired through learning.
- 'Based on mental development' is that knowledge which one has acquired through mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full concentration; appanā Vis.M XIV.
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/Panna

panna can arise when there is thinking and learning. At any time in where there is discernment on something there is arising of panna. Discernment about Sila is included.

[Ontheway]

I would argue that Sila, Samadhi, and Pañña is a progressive separated experience.
Pañña will arrive when we have Jhanas.

Just to add this summary from Nyanatiloka:

With regard to the condition of its arising one distinguishes 3 kinds of knowledge knowledge based on thinking cintā-mayā-paññā knowledge based on learning suta-mayā-paññā knowledge based on mental development bhāvanā -mayā-paññā D. 33.

- 'Based on thinking' is that knowledge which one has accquired through one's own thinking, without having learnt it from others.
- 'Based on learning' is that knowledge which one has heard from others and thus acquired through learning.
- 'Based on mental development' is that knowledge which one has acquired through mental development in this or that way, and which has reached the stage of full concentration; appanā Vis.M XIV.
https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/Panna

panna can arise when there is thinking and learning. At any time in where there is discernment on something there is arising of panna. Discernment about Sila is included.

Thanks for the info. I am aware of this.

I could refine my statement that Sila, Samadhi and Pañña are separated category but interconnected experience. Without Sila, there will be no Samadhi, without Samadhi, there is no arriving at Wisdom pertaining to canker destruction. But I think this is another topic though.

[zerotime]

I could refine my statement that Sila, Samadhi and Pañña are separated category but interconnected experience. Without Sila, there will be no Samadhi, without Samadhi, there is no arriving at Wisdom pertaining to canker destruction. But I think this is another topic though.

you are right regarding the fetters or an enough powerful insight of wisdom into Reality. You sure knows this is a frequent discussion, about the role of wisdom for nibbana and if there is necessity of jhana or not, and such things.

However, panna is a function in mind working all the time in different degrees. Panna also arise to clean any error related with the Truth, despite its arising cannot be enough powerful to being linked with samadhi and the rest.

Because this reason we are able to check the progress in ourselves or other people regarding past times. There is a constant accumulation of panna depending of the beautiful factors arising in the mind. So in simple terms, the persistence of thoughts arising to search what is truth, good and beauty, it will condition the more frequent arising of panna. And then we will say that when the mind is purified with Sila, there are more conditions for the arising of wisdom and the progress. Logically.

IMHO, I understand when one point to the "inner sila" as ruled by wisdom, it shouldn't be understood like something outside from moral. Because we should remember that panna cannot arise without the company of those beautiful factors which also characterize the nature of Sila. At the end, it only can means a difference to understand the way to focus our inner look towards Sila inside us: like a guide of behavior ruling our inner world, or like the wisdom to dispel what is wrong. Or probably both with different weight depending the person.

Sorry in case of disruption, I though this could be relevant.

[asahi]

Actually , this is a non case . The meaning of behaviour according to dictionary : the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially towards others.

In the early sangha the code of conducts was lay down in different times and occasions when after some disciples have done some wrong doings . Thus Sila is the beginning practice of the path or a training where one observe to prevent one from doing something inappropriate or unwholesome in our conducts . It is also called purification of conducts . So it should be about maintaining a pure behaviour or conduct .

[mjaviem]

... a pure behaviour or conduct .

[zerotime]

Actually , this is a non case . The meaning of behaviour according to dictionary : the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially towards others.

In the early sangha the code of conducts was lay down in different times and occasions when after some disciples have done some wrong doings . Thus Sila is the beginning practice of the path or a training where one observe to prevent one from doing something inappropriate or unwholesome in our conducts . It is also called purification of conducts . So it should be about maintaining a pure behaviour or conduct .

I think you are right. Then also do you think Sila is mainly established for a relation with the world?

[Kumara]

Actually , this is a non case . The meaning of behaviour according to dictionary : the way in which one acts or conducts oneself, especially towards others.

In the early sangha the code of conducts was lay down in different times and occasions when after some disciples have done some wrong doings . Thus Sila is the beginning practice of the path or a training where one observe to prevent one from doing something inappropriate or unwholesome in our conducts . It is also called purification of conducts . So it should be about maintaining a pure behaviour or conduct .

I think you are right. Then also do you think Sila is mainly established for a relation with the world?

That's true at the practical level, which is why some monastic rules are pretty much just for communal harmony or for satisfying public perception, or both.

But for the training of sila for the ending of suffering, it would require more. FYI, there are no rules about acting superior, but doing so prevents one (regardless if you're a monastic or not) from being able to see one's conceit. In other words, you need a higher training of sila for samadhi and pañña to work at a higher level.

[SarathW]

What is important to note in this discussion is that Silla is also a basic type of Samadhi.
However, without restraining the five senses there is no Sila or Samadhi.