Getting onboard with Sutta material MN123

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Sheeba
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Getting onboard with Sutta material MN123

Post by Sheeba »

Hi

I have been reading In the Buddha's words by Bhikkhu Bodhi and came across an abridged version of MN123. Im not sure how much of this to take literally, i have since read another MN123 on Sutta Central and the same problems arises for me in example:

“I heard and learned this from the Blessed One’s own lips: ‘When the Bodhisatta came forth from his mother’s womb, he came forth unsullied, unsmeared by water, humors, blood, or any kind of impurity, clean and unsullied

“I heard and learned this from the Blessed One’s own lips: ‘When the Bodhisatta came forth from his mother’s womb, two jets of water appeared to pour from the sky, one cool and one warm, for bathing the Bodhisatta and his mother.’

“I heard and learned this from the Blessed One’s own lips: ‘As soon as the Bodhisatta was born, he stood firmly with his feet on the ground; then he took seven steps facing north, and with a white parasol held over him, he surveyed each quarter and uttered the words of the leader of the herd: “I am the highest in the world; I am the best in the world; I am the foremost in the world. This is my last birth; now there is no renewed existence for me.”

Should i take these statements literally as that stating fact that is what happened or is this symbollism?
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Getting onboard with Sutta material MN123

Post by Ceisiwr »

Sheeba wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:45 am Hi

I have been reading In the Buddha's words by Bhikkhu Bodhi and came across an abridged version of MN123. Im not sure how much of this to take literally, i have since read another MN123 on Sutta Central and the same problems arises for me in example:

“I heard and learned this from the Blessed One’s own lips: ‘When the Bodhisatta came forth from his mother’s womb, he came forth unsullied, unsmeared by water, humors, blood, or any kind of impurity, clean and unsullied

“I heard and learned this from the Blessed One’s own lips: ‘When the Bodhisatta came forth from his mother’s womb, two jets of water appeared to pour from the sky, one cool and one warm, for bathing the Bodhisatta and his mother.’

“I heard and learned this from the Blessed One’s own lips: ‘As soon as the Bodhisatta was born, he stood firmly with his feet on the ground; then he took seven steps facing north, and with a white parasol held over him, he surveyed each quarter and uttered the words of the leader of the herd: “I am the highest in the world; I am the best in the world; I am the foremost in the world. This is my last birth; now there is no renewed existence for me.”

Should i take these statements literally as that stating fact that is what happened or is this symbollism?
Symbolism.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
santa100
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Re: Getting onboard with Sutta material MN123

Post by santa100 »

Sheeba wrote:Should i take these statements literally as that stating fact that is what happened or is this symbollism?
Truth is that a Sammasambuddha doesn't come around that often in this world. The last one came ~ 2,500 years ago, and the next one...well, neither you and me (at least not our current versions) will be around to bring Him into the lab to test. So the honest answer is we don't know one way or another. However, that shouldn't stop you from testing out His other teachings like the 4NT, Five Precepts, 8FNP, 12DO, etc. which are more relevant to our making progress on the Path.
SarathW
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Re: Getting onboard with Sutta material MN123

Post by SarathW »

santa100 wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 5:13 am
Sheeba wrote:Should i take these statements literally as that stating fact that is what happened or is this symbollism?
Truth is that a Sammasambuddha doesn't come around that often in this world. The last one came ~ 2,500 years ago, and the next one...well, neither you and me (at least not our current versions) will be around to bring Him into the lab to test. So the honest answer is we don't know one way or another. However, that shouldn't stop you from testing out His other teachings like the 4NT, Five Precepts, 8FNP, 12DO, etc. which are more relevant to our making progress on the Path.
:goodpost:

The best bet is to set aside the areas we can not understand and concentrate on the areas we can very with our own experience. The Dhamma is a path. You develop your understanding and meet people as you progress.
It is like climbing the Himalayas.
You will know the terrain only when you climb the mountain yourself.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
BKh
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Re: Getting onboard with Sutta material MN123

Post by BKh »

Sheeba wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:45 am Should i take these statements literally as that stating fact that is what happened or is this symbollism?
Literally. That is how the people who gathered them together after the Buddha's passing away and who kept them preserved until now would have taken them. It's fine to take them symbolically, just don't deny that that isn't the way people have taken them for centuries.
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pops
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Re: Getting onboard with Sutta material MN123

Post by pops »

wouldn't mind too much about MN123 - if one must: maybe a good idea to focus more on the last statement: the blessed one knows feeling, perception and thought.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Getting onboard with Sutta material MN123

Post by Ceisiwr »

BKh wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 11:18 am
Sheeba wrote: Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:45 am Should i take these statements literally as that stating fact that is what happened or is this symbollism?
Literally. That is how the people who gathered them together after the Buddha's passing away and who kept them preserved until now would have taken them. It's fine to take them symbolically, just don't deny that that isn't the way people have taken them for centuries.
I don’t think everyone in old times would have believed it even. For example Venerable Dharmakīrti is said to have said it’s ok not to believe everything that’s written in the texts. This is due to his epistemology. No doubt there were other Buddhists throughout history who took such things with a pinch of salt.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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pops
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Re: Getting onboard with Sutta material MN123

Post by pops »

there is (not ...) always MN1 as a torough 'guide' through the process of all wishes to cling to certain conceptions and the questions they provoke.

If MN123 provides Information or Questions which cause doubts concerning the eightfold noble path maybe you want to pose them.

That means: in my opinion its not such a good idea getting 'onboard' with MN123, unless it provokes a portion of fascination which may lead to MN9 last but not least - as an example for a sutta which may provide really helpful insights.
Last edited by pops on Sun Jan 15, 2023 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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