Can a Sotapanna be reborn in the hell or animal realm?

[Lal]

The question is: " How could (those born in the apayas) possibly come to the end of their “woeful” state if the Dhamma is closed to them?"

In the Buddha's worldview, the universe did not come into existence in a "Big Bang," as scientists currently believe. Furthermore, even though the Earth will be destroyed in the future, it will "re-form" after billions of more years. Then all those without any magga phala will start life as humans. I know this will be a shock to most people.

Buddha's "previously unheard" above worldview is described in the "Aggañña Sutta (DN 27):" https://suttacentral.net/dn27/en/sujato ... ript=latin

However, a discussion of that sutta needs a lengthy explanation.
Following is a summary of that sutta:
(i). The universe has no traceable beginning, just like life; see “Origin of Life – There is No Traceable Origin.”viewtopic.php?p=518755#p518755

(ii). The universe has “clusters or groups” of stars. Our Solar system is one of 10,000 “star systems” (cakkavāla or planetary systems; chakrawāta in Sinhala). There is an infinite number of such cakkavāla in the universe.
(iii). When a star in the vicinity of our Sun blows up in a few billion years, that blast will destroy 10,000 other star systems in the neighborhood. In modern science, such a “star explosion” has a particular name, a supernova.
(iv). Such a cluster of 10,000 world systems blows up from time to time in the universe. Again, scientists observe such supernovae every year.
(v). Science does not know yet that those destroyed star systems re-form over billions of years.
(vi). Not all 31 realms get destroyed when our Solar system blows up at the end of a mahā kappa. Higher lying Brahma worlds (where there is very little “destructible matter”) survive. That is where all living beings on this Earth end up before the destruction of the Earth.
(vii). How all living beings end up in the Brahma realms is a long story.
(viii). Then, when the Earth re-forms, those Brahmā — at the end of their lifetimes in those worlds — are reborn as humans with very light, Brahma-like bodies at first.
(ix). Then the life on Earth evolves to other lifeforms too. That is a “reverse evolution” compared to the “theory of evolution” currently accepted by science. After billions of years, the realms below the Ābhassara Brahma realm will be destroyed again to be re-formed after billions of more years. That cycle will keep repeating.
(x). So, that is the life cycle. It happens all over the universe at any given time. Scientists observe several supernovae in our galaxy yearly (billions of cakkavāla).

The answer to the question raised is the following:
- At the end of a Maha Kappa (a world cycle), the Earth is destroyed, and there is a "reset" to life.
- All living beings live in Brahma realms above the Abhassara Brahma realm, which are not destroyed.
- After billions of years, the Earth (and the Solar system) re-forms, and most of those Brahmas (except those with magga phala) are reborn on the newly-formed Earth. That is when those who had been in the apayas, start over as humans.

You can get an idea by reading the above post and follow-up posts. I have revised some of those and the whole series at "Origin of Life" :https://puredhamma.net/dhamma-and-scien ... n-of-life/

This is a complex topic, and I may not comment anymore on this thread. I will answer if I see a question that can be answered without getting into details. If a question is not answered, please understand that it will require lengthy explanations.

[frank k]

The ratana sutta is a poetic compositiion, not one of the suttas you'd look to for definitive detailed explanation.
In fact the entire ratana sutta sounds like a commercial promoting how great the Buddha and Dhamma are, but without giving any useful practical details of how to practice the path.
In a poetic composition, you'd fully expect them to say something clever like "there won't be an eight birth" instead of the standard "7".
So the context and goal of this sutta, doesn't make me think it's giving a specific detail about the '7'.
If other important details about the path were given in that sutta, then I would reconsider.

And for stream enterers, what does 7 lives at most actually mean?

Those who realized the Noble Truths well taught by him who is profound in wisdom, even though they may be exceedingly heedless, they will not take an eighth existence. … By this truth may there be happiness.


Ratana Sutta: The Jewel Discourse

[cappuccino]

… then I would reconsider.

Doubt is a hindrance

[Joe.c]

What are you talking about? So arahants don't have psychic powers either? (that's clearly not the case)

Don't compare stream enterer with an arahant with psychics powers.

Also not all arahant choose to have psychic power, probably less than 25% have. I haven't seen one right now. Very rare.

[frank k]

… then I would reconsider.

Doubt is a hindrance

Blind faith and lack of critical thinking is a much greater hindrance.

Stream entry is not such a well defined attainment, as the other 3 noble attainments.
For example, in SN 55 the drunkard who all the people doubt could possibly be a stream entry, but who the Buddha confirms is.
Whereas, someone who never experiences greed, anger, delusion, is obviously very unusual to the casual observer.

[thepea]

… then I would reconsider.

Doubt is a hindrance

Blind faith and lack of critical thinking is a much greater hindrance.

Stream entry is not such a well defined attainment, as the other 3 noble attainments.
For example, in SN 55 the drunkard who all the people doubt could possibly be a stream entry, but who the Buddha confirms is.
Whereas, someone who never experiences greed, anger, delusion, is obviously very unusual to the casual observer.

To realize the nanas is to receive the base insight of which ones practice is to mature.
The frution of nibbana give one the slightest taste of this peace within.
Once experienced this can never be forgotten which offers the stream enterer the base for their unwavering confidence in the dhamma.
Having done the base of work the steam entrant knows this was not dependant on rites or rituals being practiced. They know the base of path practice.
Also this nibbanic frution offers a glimpse of the truth of self as it relates to ultimate and aparent reality.

That’s it!
Although possibly uncommon for this frution to occur amongst the masses it is in no way an altering experience that would be noticed by the public. If you were an angry man you will still have those tendencies although instead of rolling in anger for days you catch this quicker and come out of this state before you enter the states of deprivation where heinous action can take place.
All of ones character traits still exist, you are just much more self aware of these traits.
Moving further down the path seriously reducing anger and greed the public is IMO more likely to take notice of your characteristic changes.

[cappuccino]

Blind faith and lack of critical thinking is a much greater hindrance.

Doubt is a fetter and Faith is necessary

[frank k]

Blind faith and lack of critical thinking is a much greater hindrance.

Doubt is a fetter and Faith is necessary

saddha is not blind 'Faith', at least not how the Buddha redefines the term.
I translate it as 'earned trust'.
see this article, especially how MN 95 it's used.
https://lucid24.org/tped/s/saddha/index.html
B. Bodhi also gives a nice explanation.

[whynotme]

… then I would reconsider.

Doubt is a hindrance

Blind faith and lack of critical thinking is a much greater hindrance.

IMO blind faith is not the problem, but doubt is an obstacle.

This is not about intellectual knowledge, but doubt is an obstacle to the peace of mind. Five hindrances are obstacles to the peace of mind.

So, from this point of view, blind faith and blind love in the Buddha are not the problem, bc they don't lead to a chaotic mind.

Doubt is a state of unease mind, undecided, not firmly settled, so it's not pleasant and not fully happiness. That's why it is an obstacle to the peace of mind. It's not the intellect unknowningness but the unease state of mind.

For example for someone who doesn't know for sure whether there's existence after death, it's unknowable to him. So he can try to examine every possibility, maybe this maybe that etc, then he comes to the conclusion that he can not know for sure whether there's an existence after death. But then he makes a calculated bet, if there's afterlife then do good is good, if there's none, then doing good is harmless. Because of that, his mind is determined and settled in peace even he still doesn't know for sure. His mind is not in doubt state even he doesn't know for sure about the intellectual matter.

It's the dilemma, no one can know for sure where the end leads to when beginning on the road. But keeping doubt about the end of the road will prevent himself from moving and reaching the end of the road and preventing him from seeing the real ending of the road.

That's why blind faith is not a hindrance, but doubt is. Not only in Buddhism but almost in every matter of life, doubt is an obstacle for moving forward. The other necessary is not doubt but carefulness and calculatefulness (is there a word like this?)

Doubt is an unconscious urge. It should be solved carefully, not suppressing it and not rising it. Suppressing doubt doesn't solve it while rising it makes the mind chaotic.

Blind faith or calculated faith doesn't matter, whichever suits the most for a person will make him happy. Of course taking blind faith in wrong person or wrong matter will pay costly, but the doubt as a hindrance is not about intellectual knowledge but the peace of mind aka jhana.

[Gwi II]

If not, why not? What is there about the woeful realms that might conflict with the maximum seven lifetimes rule of stream enterer progression?

Can a anāgāmin be reborn in the hell or animal realm?

[yamadwipa]

I don't think so. Because they have a failsafe mechanism to deter themselves from doing grave sins. You call it conscience.