Webu Sayadaw's Meditation Method - Plausible?

[suspence772]

I've piece-mailed Webu Sayadaw's meditation techniques through his various discourses presented in the Selected Discourses of Webu Sayadaw (which is the updated version of The Way to Ultimate Clam) and are summarized below:

• concentration should be focused on the breathing sensations at the nose tip

• concentration in this manner shall be maintained during all activities at all times of the day (sitting, standing, walking, eating, etc.)

• vipassana is utilized with constant contemplation of anatta with the breathing sensations ala "dry insight"

• mindfulness of feelings and thoughts are practiced when they do arise

• intense striving and utmost effort is utilized each day

I have practiced this method briefly and can see/feel incremental progress. I feel it's a much simpler version of the Mahasi Method (both involve a "dry insight" approach, both require constant mindfulness, and both encourage constant striving) and has the associated benefits along with it. I've learned things that I haven't learned doing two retreats utilizing the Mahasi Method and continue to be surprised at this simple technique.

On the other hand, I'm concerned about some statements that purport his method to be practiced in the past:

Wise people of the past have practiced this awareness of the breath as the Buddha instructed them, and because they passed on the teachings, you too have understood now. (Page 61)

It is impossible to teach every aspect of the Dhamma. But if you keep your attention focused on the spot and are aware from moment to moment, then you will reach your goal. The Buddha did teach this, and the wise people of old did reach their goal by this practice, and yet there are many things the Buddha realized that are not contained in this. But you can reach your goal if you keep knowing inbreath and out-breath at the spot. (Page 70)

The wise people of old practiced the teachings without allowing their efforts to diminish in any of the four postures, and they kept up such a perfect continuity of awareness that there never was any gap. You too have to practice in this way. The disciples of the Buddha established awareness of the spot and then did not allow their minds to shift to another object. (Page 78)

Where is the record of these wise folks who practiced this way? Was this lost in history? And where in the Buddha's teachings does he instruct to be with one object at all times during all activities? In the Maha Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10), the Buddha instructs to be mindful of the body through the breath, the four postures, all other activities during the day, body parts, elements, and corpses; there doesn't appear to be any guidance on focusing more on one object over another or doing two at the same time. Perhaps I'm expecting the focus on sitting, walking, standing, and laying down to be the object of focus as it is in the Mahasi Method, but this awareness appears to be on a more subtle level. My main concern is that he states that his method is "in accordance to the teachings of the Buddha" (page 12) but I and other folks haven't verified that the Buddha stated this; specifically, about picking one object (anapana in this case) and sticking with it in all activities. Another concern is that anapanasati was always practiced in the sitting position and never found to be practiced in any other position - but I hope I'm wrong.

Lastly, is there really no other people who practice this method? I've only read of two other folks on these boards who practiced this in the past and definitely have not found any monks, teachers, or schools who use this approach. This may be an appeal to authority, but is there really no other people who practice this method to success other than the Sayadaw himself? I ask because it looks like he may be the exception to the rule and invites suspicion to the efficacy of the method itself.

I believe in Webu Sayadaw's attainment, but these doubts are enough to at least get some clarification from much more erudite folks here on this board and I hope to come across a better understanding - I know of one person who doesn't believe in his attainment, and there may be others. On the other hand, I'm starting to think that maybe there are multiple ways one can progress along this path that isn't word-for-word written in the suttas. Although I'm all for preserving traditions via dogmatic practice, I think there is a time and place to be pragmatic and perhaps Webu Sayadaw found an extremely simple and effective way to achieve peace that is perfectly suited for his main audience - the laity. I'm hoping some folks can chime in and tell me where I'm wrong in my thinking as I'm generally interested in spreading the word about this technique.

Thank you for all help.

[robertk]

Visuddhimagga Viii

211: "Although any meditation subject, no matter what, is successful only in one who is mindful and fully aware, yet any meditation subject other than this one gets more evident as he goes on giving it his attention. But this mindfulness of breathing is difficult, difficult to develop, a field in which only the minds of Buddhas, paccekabuddhas and Buddhas sons are at home. It is no trivial matter, nor can it be cultivated by trivial persons

[sunnat]

Trimming away any fat, of which there really is little, The Venerable Webu Sayadaw basically said that if one maintains a continuous awareness of the in and out breathing for 24 hours one will reach the goal.
In the Satipatthana Sutta The Lord says that if one practices the awareness of the in and out breathing at the moustache area diligently and continuously Parimukha literally means "around (pari) the entrance (mukha)”. Naturally, with the breath, that refers to the area around the nostrils. As a result the body is known as not self and the virtuous practitioner comes to not cling to anything in true world which is the springboard to the goal.
Later in the Sutta The Blessed One states that if anyone trains correctly then in seven days one may expect gnosis. For The Venerable to say that he needed 24 continuous hours is entirely believable.
There is no critical variance from what he and The Buddha said.
As The Venerable said The Buddha said much more.
If The Venerables technique works for you then work it. If not, don’t.

[suspence772]

Trimming away any fat, of which there really is little, The Venerable Webu Sayadaw basically said that if one maintains a continuous awareness of the in and out breathing for 24 hours one will reach the goal.
In the Satipatthana Sutta The Lord says that if one practices the awareness of the in and out breathing at the moustache area diligently and continuously Parimukha literally means "around (pari) the entrance (mukha)”. Naturally, with the breath, that refers to the area around the nostrils. As a result the body is known as not self and the virtuous practitioner comes to not cling to anything in true world which is the springboard to the goal.
Later in the Sutta The Blessed One states that if anyone trains correctly then in seven days one may expect gnosis. For The Venerable to say that he needed 24 continuous hours is entirely believable.
There is no critical variance from what he and The Buddha said.
As The Venerable said The Buddha said much more.
If The Venerables technique works for you then work it. If not, don’t.

Thank you for your reply and I agree that there isn't too much variance with the Satipatthana Sutta and his method, although not as close to it compared to the Mahasi Method. Webu Sayadaw focused most of his instruction on concentrating on the spot without fail, which implies that one should be aware, albeit minimally, when in other postures and doing other things. I can tell from my short experience thus far focusing on the breathing sensations while walking that there is definitely an awareness of walking despite the concentration on the other area.

However, I'd like to correct that the Webu Sayadaw didn't emphatically state that concentrating without fail for 24 hours will lead to attainment, but that "results" will be seen:

Be mindful of the present continuously. If you can keep on knowing the present for twenty-four hours at a stretch, the good results will be evident. (Page 210)

There are twenty-four hours in a day. If your awareness can be continuous for twenty-four hours, the beneficial results will be very clear. (Page 213)

What exactly is meant by "results" is not expounded on. I can imagine if one can reach that point, progress can be seen to a high degree. The only concern I have is that perhaps there is a better reason not to focus on the breath while doing other activities that the Buddha spoke about but haven't substantiated. As I've mentioned earlier, anapana was always mentioned while sitting, never while in any other posture - I just confirmed this in a search on suttacentral and only found one instance where he doesn't state a position to practice breathing in Arv 20 Ṣoḍaśākārā Ānāpāna-Smṛtiḥ. However, the Buddha states in the Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118):

"Mindfulness of breathing, when developed and cultivated in this way, is very fruitful and beneficial."

Maybe this implies that anapanasati (not the same as what we're talking about due to the 16 tetrads and jhanas, which we aren't practicing in this method) is of great benefit in the sitting position, but can also be of benefit in other positions. Just because he says it's useful in one doesn't mean it isn't useful in another.

I understand that the worry about this is more serious than the substance itself, but my goal is to honor the Buddha's teachings as best I can. Thank you both for the help thus far.

[sunnat]

Yes, perhaps I choose to understand results as attainments. Thank you. As The Venerable Webu Sayadaw is considered an arhat the method he suggests can be seen in that light. Preceding all satipatthana instructions regarding body in body is training in anapana. Anapana bridges the mind to tranquility and hence to in-sight of kaya-, vedana-, citta- and dhamma-nupassana. There is no reason to think anapanasati is not to be used in walking meditation (for example) for calm and focus.

[Microdose]

I've piece-mailed Webu Sayadaw's meditation techniques through his various discourses presented in the Selected Discourses of Webu Sayadaw (which is the updated version of The Way to Ultimate Clam) and are summarized below:

• concentration should be focused on the breathing sensations at the nose tip

• concentration in this manner shall be maintained during all activities at all times of the day (sitting, standing, walking, eating, etc.)

• vipassana is utilized with constant contemplation of anatta with the breathing sensations ala "dry insight"

• mindfulness of feelings and thoughts are practiced when they do arise

• intense striving and utmost effort is utilized each day

I have practiced this method briefly and can see/feel incremental progress. I feel it's a much simpler version of the Mahasi Method (both involve a "dry insight" approach, both require constant mindfulness, and both encourage constant striving) and has the associated benefits along with it. I've learned things that I haven't learned doing two retreats utilizing the Mahasi Method and continue to be surprised at this simple technique.

On the other hand, I'm concerned about some statements that purport his method to be practiced in the past:

Wise people of the past have practiced this awareness of the breath as the Buddha instructed them, and because they passed on the teachings, you too have understood now. (Page 61)

It is impossible to teach every aspect of the Dhamma. But if you keep your attention focused on the spot and are aware from moment to moment, then you will reach your goal. The Buddha did teach this, and the wise people of old did reach their goal by this practice, and yet there are many things the Buddha realized that are not contained in this. But you can reach your goal if you keep knowing inbreath and out-breath at the spot. (Page 70)

The wise people of old practiced the teachings without allowing their efforts to diminish in any of the four postures, and they kept up such a perfect continuity of awareness that there never was any gap. You too have to practice in this way. The disciples of the Buddha established awareness of the spot and then did not allow their minds to shift to another object. (Page 78)

Where is the record of these wise folks who practiced this way? Was this lost in history? And where in the Buddha's teachings does he instruct to be with one object at all times during all activities? In the Maha Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10), the Buddha instructs to be mindful of the body through the breath, the four postures, all other activities during the day, body parts, elements, and corpses; there doesn't appear to be any guidance on focusing more on one object over another or doing two at the same time. Perhaps I'm expecting the focus on sitting, walking, standing, and laying down to be the object of focus as it is in the Mahasi Method, but this awareness appears to be on a more subtle level. My main concern is that he states that his method is "in accordance to the teachings of the Buddha" (page 12) but I and other folks haven't verified that the Buddha stated this; specifically, about picking one object (anapana in this case) and sticking with it in all activities. Another concern is that anapanasati was always practiced in the sitting position and never found to be practiced in any other position - but I hope I'm wrong.

Lastly, is there really no other people who practice this method? I've only read of two other folks on these boards who practiced this in the past and definitely have not found any monks, teachers, or schools who use this approach. This may be an appeal to authority, but is there really no other people who practice this method to success other than the Sayadaw himself? I ask because it looks like he may be the exception to the rule and invites suspicion to the efficacy of the method itself.

I believe in Webu Sayadaw's attainment, but these doubts are enough to at least get some clarification from much more erudite folks here on this board and I hope to come across a better understanding - I know of one person who doesn't believe in his attainment, and there may be others. On the other hand, I'm starting to think that maybe there are multiple ways one can progress along this path that isn't word-for-word written in the suttas. Although I'm all for preserving traditions via dogmatic practice, I think there is a time and place to be pragmatic and perhaps Webu Sayadaw found an extremely simple and effective way to achieve peace that is perfectly suited for his main audience - the laity. I'm hoping some folks can chime in and tell me where I'm wrong in my thinking as I'm generally interested in spreading the word about this technique.

Thank you for all help.

My practice is Ana, simple awareness of breath

From this thoughts decrease and intuition increases, I’m aware more of my own body and mind

I don’t feel I need to add or take anything away from this

If my thoughts increase it means I have stress somewhere in body or mind, then with awareness one can find the root and pluck it out or purify it

Nothing is more powerful than a simple aware mind

[mariahcarey]

Strange that he used elevated seats which is something a Samana shouldn't do and his personality cult with all the imagery and statues is a bit unsettling.
wordle

[robertk]

Strange that he used elevated seats which is something a Samana shouldn't do and his personality cult with all the imagery and statues is a bit unsettling.
wordle

I think that laypeople provide these for bhikkhus- probably the Sayadaw simply sat where they had made a seat for him.

[Goofaholix]

Strange that he used elevated seats which is something a Samana shouldn't do and his personality cult with all the imagery and statues is a bit unsettling.

Lay people are supposed to sit lower when having a conversation or being taught by a monk, the easiest way to achieve this is for the monk to sit on a platform of some kind, I see in one of the photos they appear to have made do with a bed. Its very common.

[BrokenBones]

Such a simple technique. One wonders why the Buddha spoke thousands of suttas and gave a myriad of teachings when he could have just said... 'focus on the spot day and night'.



Maybe it's not that simple; although we all wish it was.

[robertk]

Such a simple technique. One wonders why the Buddha spoke thousands of suttas and gave a myriad of teachings when he could have just said... 'focus on the spot day and night'.



Maybe it's not that simple; although we all wish it was.

[Goofaholix]

Maybe it's not that simple; although we all wish it was.

Ultimately a technique is just a finger pointing at the moon, once you see the moon the technique that helped you do that is not all its cracked up to be.

[BrokenBones]

Maybe it's not that simple; although we all wish it was.

Ultimately a technique is just a finger pointing at the moon, once you see the moon the technique that helped you do that is not all its cracked up to be.

What if the 'technique' is not actually pointing at anything worth knowing?

[Goofaholix]

What if the 'technique' is not actually pointing at anything worth knowing?

That would then be s waste of time.

[BrokenBones]

What if the 'technique' is not actually pointing at anything worth knowing?

That would then be s waste of time.

Spot on.