Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by User13866 »

DeadBuddha wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:33 am Hello,

Thank you for your answer.
* speech ceases in the 1st jhana
Where does it explain that verbal discursive thoughts are non-existent during the first jhâna?
Nowhere does anybody say that. Breaking into speech is not the same as vv.
First you vitakketvā vicāretvā, then you break into speech. That’s why vitakkavicārā are verbal formations.

Pubbe kho, gahapati, vitakketvā vicāretvā pacchā vācaṁ bhindati, tasmā vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro.

https://suttacentral.net/sn41.6/en/suja ... ript=latin
in 36.11
For someone who has attained the first jhāna, speech has ceased.

Paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ samāpannassa vācā niruddhā hoti.

For someone who has attained the second jhāna, the vitakkavicārā have ceased.

https://suttacentral.net/sn36.11/en/suj ... ript=latin
Points of Controversy wrote:Pubbaseliya: Is it wrong to say that there is articulate utterance on the part of one who has entered Jhāna?


Theravādin: Yes.


Pubbaseliya: But was it not said by the Exalted One that initial and sustained application of mind was vocal activity? And does not such application belong to one in first Jhāna? Surely then my proposition is true.


Theravādin: Granting that you quote correctly, and that one in first Jhāna is engaged in such application, I say, you have just denied that anyone attaining Jhāna by any of the eight artifices does make articulate utterance. How then can you also affirm your proposition?


Pubbaseliya: But was it not said by the Exalted One that speech arises from initial application or directing of thought? And does not such movement of thought belong to one in first Jhāna?


Theravādin: That is no good reason. The Exalted One also said that speech is caused by perception. Now one in second, third, or fourth Jhāna has perception, but we know that he no longer applies or sustains thought. So also for the four more abstract Jhāna states 

https://suttacentral.net/kv2.5/en/aung- ... ight=false
As i understand the articulate utterance is a reference to speech there, not a reference to vv.
Kumara Bikkhu explains why the fact that "sound is a thorn for the first jhana" does not mean that sound is non-existent in the first jhana
As to hearing in jhana i've written another post in this thread already.

That being said Kumara Bhikkhu has no need to argue with that interpretation because i likened sound being a thorn to the first jhana as the liking of a melodic recitation is a thorn in recitation and it can be inferred that even tho melodic recitation breaks the samadhi one can still do it.
Last edited by User13866 on Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by User13866 »

User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:18 am
DeadBuddha wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:33 am Kumara Bikkhu explains why the fact that "sound is a thorn for the first jhana" does not mean that sound is non-existent in the first jhana
As to hearing in jhana i've written another post in this thread already.

That being said Kumara Bhikkhu has no need to argue with that interpretation because i likened sound being a thorn to the first jhana as the liking of a melodic recitation is a thorn in recitation and it can be inferred that even tho melodic recitation breaks the samadhi one can still do it.
You can ask him whether he thinks one can speak in the first jhana which is what is being discussed there.
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

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User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:09 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:13 pm I don't think the Visuddhimagga takes prominence over Vinaya. Monks are not to pick flowers and the lighting of fires only when necessary is explained in detail in the vinaya... no kasina mentioned (it borders on fire offering which is definitely raked over the coals in vinaya & sutta).

You see how contrary and out of left field so much of the Visuddhimagga is?

It fails miserably with the little things... how much more the big things?
That book should've been called Avijja Nikaya.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone did steal the manuscript 3 times because that book is more harm than good.
you don't like abhidhamma either then?
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

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auto wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:56 pm
User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 5:09 am
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:13 pm I don't think the Visuddhimagga takes prominence over Vinaya. Monks are not to pick flowers and the lighting of fires only when necessary is explained in detail in the vinaya... no kasina mentioned (it borders on fire offering which is definitely raked over the coals in vinaya & sutta).

You see how contrary and out of left field so much of the Visuddhimagga is?

It fails miserably with the little things... how much more the big things?
That book should've been called Avijja Nikaya.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone did steal the manuscript 3 times because that book is more harm than good.
you don't like abhidhamma either then?
It's not about liking. Abhidhamma is 7 books. There is at least one point of controversy that i am not convinced by and i haven't mastered the abhidhamma.

If you remove the cancer from the Vsm then it's great. In particular i like the dhutanga poetry very much.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:13 pm I don't think the Visuddhimagga takes prominence over Vinaya. Monks are not to pick flowers and the lighting of fires only when necessary is explained in detail in the vinaya... no kasina mentioned (it borders on fire offering which is definitely raked over the coals in vinaya & sutta).

You see how contrary and out of left field so much of the Visuddhimagga is?

It fails miserably with the little things... how much more the big things?
I looked at the Vinaya. On lighting fires, I found this
There is no offense: if he is sick; if he warms himself over a fire lit by another; if he warms himself over flameless coals; if he lights a lamp, a small fire, or a sauna, when there is an suitable reason; if there is an emergency; if he is insane; if he is the first offender.
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-p ... ript=latin

I don't see how using fire for the fire kasiṇa breaks this rule? On flowers, it seems the monk or nuns collects the flowers or petals.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:57 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 11:13 pm I don't think the Visuddhimagga takes prominence over Vinaya. Monks are not to pick flowers and the lighting of fires only when necessary is explained in detail in the vinaya... no kasina mentioned (it borders on fire offering which is definitely raked over the coals in vinaya & sutta).

You see how contrary and out of left field so much of the Visuddhimagga is?

It fails miserably with the little things... how much more the big things?
I looked at the Vinaya. On lighting fires, I found this
There is no offense: if he is sick; if he warms himself over a fire lit by another; if he warms himself over flameless coals; if he lights a lamp, a small fire, or a sauna, when there is an suitable reason; if there is an emergency; if he is insane; if he is the first offender.
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-p ... ript=latin

I don't see how using fire for the fire kasiṇa breaks this rule? On flowers, it seems the monk or nuns collects the flowers or petals.
Pretty much what I said ( although you subtly imply that monks can PICK flowers).

Monks cannot pick flowers. Maybe they can gather fallen petals, which presents the farcical situation where a monk is unable to meditate for several days... waiting for the petals to fall... it's the little things that should set off warning bells.

Simple question... why do think that the makings of disks and the arrangement of fire, earth etc. for kasina practice is not touched upon in the vinaya?

The vinaya covers pretty much everything a monk is allowed to do and how to do it.
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

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BrokenBones wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:47 pm
Pretty much what I said ( although you subtly imply that monks can PICK flowers).

Monks cannot pick flowers. Maybe they can gather fallen petals, which presents the farcical situation where a monk is unable to meditate for several days... waiting for the petals to fall... it's the little things that should set off warning bells.

Simple question... why do think that the makings of disks and the arrangement of fire, earth etc. for kasina practice is not touched upon in the vinaya?

The vinaya covers pretty much everything a monk is allowed to do and how to do it.
I had in mind that they pick up fallen flowers. On the Vinaya, I imagine it's because the Vinaya doesn't cover how to meditate. It's about behaviour and day to day living, and how that behaviour is perceived by the laity.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by BrokenBones »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:56 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:47 pm
Pretty much what I said ( although you subtly imply that monks can PICK flowers).

Monks cannot pick flowers. Maybe they can gather fallen petals, which presents the farcical situation where a monk is unable to meditate for several days... waiting for the petals to fall... it's the little things that should set off warning bells.

Simple question... why do think that the makings of disks and the arrangement of fire, earth etc. for kasina practice is not touched upon in the vinaya?

The vinaya covers pretty much everything a monk is allowed to do and how to do it.
I had in mind that they pick up fallen flowers. On the Vinaya, I imagine it's because the Vinaya doesn't cover how to meditate. It's about behaviour and day to day living, and how that behaviour is perceived by the laity.
Yes, it also covers allowable requisites and if meditation paraphernalia was known about it would come under scrutiny.

Edit... I'm pretty sure that there are meditation/sutta like instructions within the vinaya but I can't recall for definite.
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by Ceisiwr »

BrokenBones wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 1:25 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:56 pm
BrokenBones wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 10:47 pm
Pretty much what I said ( although you subtly imply that monks can PICK flowers).

Monks cannot pick flowers. Maybe they can gather fallen petals, which presents the farcical situation where a monk is unable to meditate for several days... waiting for the petals to fall... it's the little things that should set off warning bells.

Simple question... why do think that the makings of disks and the arrangement of fire, earth etc. for kasina practice is not touched upon in the vinaya?

The vinaya covers pretty much everything a monk is allowed to do and how to do it.
I had in mind that they pick up fallen flowers. On the Vinaya, I imagine it's because the Vinaya doesn't cover how to meditate. It's about behaviour and day to day living, and how that behaviour is perceived by the laity.
Yes, it also covers allowable requisites and if meditation paraphernalia was known about it would come under scrutiny.

Edit... I'm pretty sure that there are meditation/sutta like instructions within the vinaya but I can't recall for definite.
Mindfulness of breathing is discussed, in terms of context. The context was relating to when the monks killed themselves.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

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Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:57 pm
I looked at the Vinaya. On lighting fires, I found this
There is no offense: if he is sick; if he warms himself over a fire lit by another; if he warms himself over flameless coals; if he lights a lamp, a small fire, or a sauna, when there is an suitable reason; if there is an emergency; if he is insane; if he is the first offender.
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-p ... ript=latin

I don't see how using fire for the fire kasiṇa breaks this rule? On flowers, it seems the monk or nuns collects the flowers or petals.
Thank you for looking it up. I just knew they weren't allowed to start fires in general.

There is no breaking of a rule if you assert that the kasina practice is a suitable reason.

There is a breaking of a rule if you assert that it's not.

Anyway i think kasina training refers to different things and that's not how one trains them.

In the sutta there is vinnana kasina too, how on earth would you make that into an object to stare at...

If i recall correctly Vsm changes this for light kasina but there is no light kasina in the sutta... Just replacing things that do not fit the narrative, omitting something and making up something else, how convenient...
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

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The air kasina is problematic too because air is the invisible form element whereas Vsm says that air kasina is visible
11. Here the learning sign appears to move like the swirl of hot [steam] on rice gruel just withdrawn from an oven. The counterpart sign is quiet and motionless. The rest should be understood in the way already described.

https://www.wisdomlib.org/buddhism/book ... 85048.html
I don't know if any of the Vsm kasina training works as intended. I've never heard of anyone reporting that it does. I've heard of people doing similar things and getting some sort of results but it wasn't specified what exactly they were attaining.

Let's assume this stuff actually works as intended. It still doesn't prove that all of these practices are same as sutta kasina attainments.
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

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If people want to train it then by all means, it's not for me to stop you but there are obvious problems there... Again consider the Air Kasina;
9. Anyone who wants to develop the air kasiṇa should apprehend the sign in air. And that is done either by sight or by touch. For this is said in the Commentaries: “One who is learning the air kasiṇa apprehends the sign in air. He notices the tops of [growing] sugarcane moving to and fro; or he notices the tops of bamboos, or the tops of trees, or the ends of the hair, moving to and fro; or he notices the touch of it on the body.”

10. So when he sees sugarcanes with dense foliage standing with tops level or bamboos or trees, or else hair four fingers long on a man’s head, being struck by the wind, he should establish mindfulness in this way: “This wind is striking on this place.” Or he can establish mindfulness where the wind strikes a part of his body after entering by a window opening or by a crack in a wall, and using any among the names for wind (vāta) beginning with “wind” (vāta), “breeze” (māluta), “blowing” (anila), he should develop [the kasiṇa] by using [preferably] the obvious “air, air.”
Why not just use the in & out breathing?

Likewise
Why not use one's own body for earth element?

Actually the earth, water, wind, fire, space and consciousness are kasina, just happen to also comprise a being and the color kasina can be derived from the visible form (earth, water, fire) iow the colors of the bodyparts...
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

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Another thing is that one can quite easily just visualize as in imagine the various colors... One could feel the bodily heat, contemplate it or maybe envision a flame.
The consciousness and space kasina one pretty much has to contemplate.

I don't know if it would work but i assume it would.

Id rather try that but you do you and report back tyvm.
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by auto »

auto wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:46 pm
frank k wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:47 am
auto wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:04 pm ...
You're on my blocked list becuase you're a stubborn blind faith follower unable to see that 2 + 2 equals 4 despite patient and repeated explanations.
According to Vism. and Abhidhamma in "special situations" 2 + 2 = 5000.

You can't even quote canonical Abhidhamma to support your wrong views on vitakka and jhāna because it supports a common sense vitakka = thinking.
Talking to you is like talking to Christian fundamentalists who know the relevant parts of their Bible less well than their opponents yet keep quoting the bible as if it supports their erroneous views.

MN 111 shows that cetana (volition) is active through all 4 jhānas and first 3 perception attainments.
You can't have volition be active and vitakka redefined to block volition and verbal thought.
when there is pannati of percpetion there is pannati of thoughts
https://suttacentral.net/mn18/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:When there is what’s known as perception, it’s possible to point out what’s known as ‘thought’.
Saññāpaññattiyā sati vitakkapaññattiṁ paññā­pessa­tī­ti­—­ṭhāna­me­taṁ vijjati.
result of perception is vohāra
https://suttacentral.net/an6.63/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:And what is the result of perceptions?
Katamo ca, bhikkhave, saññānaṁ vipāko?
Communication is the result of perception, I say.
Vohāravepakkaṁ, bhikkhave, saññaṁ vadāmi.
vohāra,
https://dictionary.sutta.org/browse/v/voh%C4%81ra/ wrote: PTS Pali-English dictionary The Pali Text Society's Pali-English dictionary

Vohāra,[vi+avahāra] 1.trade,business M.II,360; Sn.614 (°ṁ upajīvati); J.I,495; II,133,202; V,471; PvA.111,278.-- 2.current appellation,common use (of language),popular logic,common way of defining,usage,designation,term,cognomen; (adj.) (-°) so called SnA 383,466,483 (laddha° so-called); DA.I,70; PvA.56,231 (laddha° padesa,with the name) VvA.8,72 (pāṇo ti vohārato satto),108 (loka nirūḷhāya samaññāya v.).--ariya-vohāra proper (i.e.Buddhist) mode of speech (opp.anariya° unbuddhist or vulgar,common speech)
..
in mn18 its used the term paññatti which mean concept in contrast to paramattha ultimate reality. It could mean that the vitakka refer to something what vohāra means in the above dictionary.
Further,
wrote:When there is what’s known as thought, it’s possible to point out what’s known as ‘being beset by concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions’.
Vitakkapaññattiyā sati papañca­saññā­saṅkhā­samu­dā­caraṇa­paññattiṁ paññā­pessa­tī­ti­—­ṭhāna­me­taṁ vijjati.
sankha is here identity(sakkaya), and identity as we know is clinging aggregates from mn44(not quoteing)
https://suttacentral.net/mn18/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:“Mendicant, a person is beset by concepts of identity that emerge from the proliferation of perceptions.
“Yatonidānaṁ, bhikkhu, purisaṁ papañcasaññāsaṅkhā samudācaranti.
If they don’t find anything worth approving, welcoming, or getting attached to in the source from which these arise,
Ettha ce natthi abhinanditabbaṁ abhivaditabbaṁ ajjhositabbaṁ.
just this is the end of the underlying tendencies to desire, repulsion, views, doubt, conceit, the desire to be reborn, and ignorance. This is the end of taking up the rod and the sword, the end of quarrels, arguments, and disputes, of accusations, divisive speech, and lies.
comparing the above with mn28,
sankha is sakkaya is five grasping aggregates.
https://suttacentral.net/mn28/en/sujato?layout=sidebyside&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin wrote:And these five grasping aggregates are indeed dependently originated.
Paṭiccasamuppannā kho panime yadidaṁ pañcupādānakkhandhā.
The desire, adherence, attraction, and attachment for these five grasping aggregates is the origin of suffering.
Yo imesu pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu chando ālayo anunayo ajjhosānaṁ so dukkhasamudayo.
and i think that the vitakka is proliferation of perceptions.
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Re: Imprecise interpretations of jhanas: which method to apply?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:04 pm
User13866 wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 9:09 am Kasina situation is most facetious to me as the commentary reduced it to some arts & crafts manual where people go around making clay disks.

Sutta is an account of 40 years of teaching and there is not one clay disk being mentioned let alone made.
The discs are for beginners.
Maybe, i'll give the benefit of doubt on the kasina practice.

I think that it was wrong of me to say that the kasina there isn't like the sutta. I think i was too harsh about it and it's reckless of me to dismiss things when not certain.

I don't want to discourage people from training it.
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