Posting frequency for "Noble" people

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santa100
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Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by santa100 »

Seems like the lunacy index's starting to get out of hand due to some self-proclaimed "noble" attainer corrupting DW threads with his voluminous nonsense. Since the TOS so far has zero policy on how to handle insanity, maybe we should add a new policy to restrict posting frequency on those who claims noble attainments. After all, they've already been "partially enlightened" and we conscientious Buddhists should assist them to complete their "remaining work" instead of wasting their valuable time chitchatting on DW. So I'd propose some posting limits, something like: 1 post per every 4 months for self-proclaimed Arahants; 1 post/3 months for Non-Returners; 1 post/2 months for Once-Returners; and 1 post/month for self-proclaimed Stream-Enterer. This is also a good way to separate the real deal from the fake, for real attainers would no longer have the urge/craving to post very frequently and be perfectly happy with this new policy. The fake won't like it but good thing is they'd only be able to spew their nonsense once in a while. In the case a self-proclaimed noble attainer beginning to recognize their mistake of over-estimating their attainment, they should be welcomed back as a regular poster once they've openly renounced their noble attainments. Just some food for thought..
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retrofuturist
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
santa100 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:13 am Just some food for thought..
Interesting, but it's a bit of a non-starter because there is no system functionality to cap posting frequency at a user level.

If there are other ways to address the underlying problem, or better still, if the underlying problem can be clearly articulated and agreed upon, we can look at it from a technical/moderation perspective and see what options exist for remediating the problem.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
SarathW
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by SarathW »

for real attainers would no longer have the urge/craving to post very frequently
Thanks.
Now I know my place.
:D
By the way some food for thought.
Even a fool who keeps silent is considered wise; when he closes his lips, he is deemed intelligent.
Last edited by SarathW on Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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santa100
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by santa100 »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:23 am Greetings,
santa100 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:13 am Just some food for thought..
Interesting, but it's a bit of a non-starter because there is no system functionality to cap posting frequency at a user level.

If there are other ways to address the underlying problem, or better still, if the underlying problem can be clearly articulated and agreed upon, we can look at it from a technical/moderation perspective and see what options exist for remediating the problem.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I don't think the number of self-proclaimed attainers is very large, and so this can easily be managed and done. You guys already have a scheduled (or interval) banned capability, where the violator will be put in read-only mode and can only regain read-and-write again after a period of time. Just use that feature, just vary the "banned" length differently for different "noble fruits".
santa100
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by santa100 »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:25 am
for real attainers would no longer have the urge/craving to post very frequently
Thanks.
Now I know my place.
:D
Oh never meant to imply you SarathW. You're a good reliable and trustworthy member here on DW. Your posts are always welcomed! :anjali:
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retrofuturist
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
santa100 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:29 am You guys already have a scheduled (or interval) banned capability, where the violator will be put in read-only mode and can only regain read-and-write again after a period of time. Just use that feature, just vary the "banned" length differently for different "noble fruits".
It's an automated functionality. We're not going to go about actually manually banning (real or fake) aryas simply because they post one post.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
santa100
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by santa100 »

retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:46 am Greetings,
santa100 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:29 am You guys already have a scheduled (or interval) banned capability, where the violator will be put in read-only mode and can only regain read-and-write again after a period of time. Just use that feature, just vary the "banned" length differently for different "noble fruits".
It's an automated functionality. We're not going to go about actually manually banning (real or fake) aryas simply because they post one post.

Metta,
Paul. :)
To be clear, we're not banning aryas here, we only use the banning functionality/capability to implement the new post frequency policy. There must be a way to tweak the message from saying "you are banned until such and such date" to: "you will be able to post again on such and such date due to your status of being an <Arahant|Non-returner|Once-returner|Stream-Enterer>". Basically the feature/functionality can be re-used with a different text message.
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by dharmacorps »

Why not just change the ToS to prohibit personal claims of attainment? It seems like it never is helpful or conducive to good dialogue.
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by SarathW »

dharmacorps wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:28 pm Why not just change the ToS to prohibit personal claims of attainment? It seems like it never is helpful or conducive to good dialogue.
In my opinion, lay people are not prohibited from claiming the attainments provided they do not seek personal gains by doing so.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by dharmacorps »

SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:56 pm
In my opinion, lay people are not prohibited from claiming the attainments provided they do not seek personal gains by doing so.
In person, sure. But anonymously, on an internet forum?
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by Sam Vara »

santa100 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:52 am
retrofuturist wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:46 am Greetings,
santa100 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 4:29 am You guys already have a scheduled (or interval) banned capability, where the violator will be put in read-only mode and can only regain read-and-write again after a period of time. Just use that feature, just vary the "banned" length differently for different "noble fruits".
It's an automated functionality. We're not going to go about actually manually banning (real or fake) aryas simply because they post one post.

Metta,
Paul. :)
To be clear, we're not banning aryas here, we only use the banning functionality/capability to implement the new post frequency policy. There must be a way to tweak the message from saying "you are banned until such and such date" to: "you will be able to post again on such and such date due to your status of being an <Arahant|Non-returner|Once-returner|Stream-Enterer>". Basically the feature/functionality can be re-used with a different text message.
Personally, I think it's an excellent idea in that it would get rid of the obvious "problem", so your thinking on this is well-directed. But there are a couple of big drawbacks. The first is that having a Theravada site which openly restricted the posting of stream-entrants etc. seems a bit dodgy. How do we know if they are genuine or not? We would be in the awkward position of saying that there are certain states which are much desired by 99% of those who post here, but if you claim to have attained them, you'll be a second-class citizen.

The second issue is how it would actually work. When they returned after the suspension, mods would have to be ready and waiting to prevent multiple postings. And how would we accurately judge whether a person was actually claiming attainments? For example, there is a difference between "I'm walking the path" and "the path has arisen for me" which is difficult to judge. Would Paul have to ask for a positive declaration, like an admission? :thinking:
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by Sam Vara »

dharmacorps wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:28 pm Why not just change the ToS to prohibit personal claims of attainment? It seems like it never is helpful or conducive to good dialogue.
See my response to santa - especially the last bit. And what if they claim to have attained jhanas? Would that count?
santa100
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by santa100 »

Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:05 pm #1. Personally, I think it's an excellent idea in that it would get rid of the obvious "problem", so your thinking on this is well-directed. But there are a couple of big drawbacks. The first is that having a Theravada site which openly restricted the posting of stream-entrants etc. seems a bit dodgy. How do we know if they are genuine or not? We would be in the awkward position of saying that there are certain states which are much desired by 99% of those who post here, but if you claim to have attained them, you'll be a second-class citizen.

#2. The second issue is how it would actually work. When they returned after the suspension, mods would have to be ready and waiting to prevent multiple postings. And how would we accurately judge whether a person was actually claiming attainments? For example, there is a difference between "I'm walking the path" and "the path has arisen for me" which is difficult to judge. Would Paul have to ask for a positive declaration, like an admission? :thinking:
I'd actually favor dharmacorps' idea, which is to ban self-proclaimed noble attainments all together for they're completely useless at best, and only sowing further doubts and divisions at worst. But since it's not an option, I'd have to find other creative ways.

For #1. The fact that a total stranger on the internet all of a sudden proclaiming themselves to have attained Noble status without prompting IS already dodgy in and of itself! I'd say out of those who self-proclaim without prompting, 99.99999% would be fake. Hence by self-proclaiming, one has already turned himself into a second-class citizen!

For #2. We can apply to those, like mentioned in #1, who outright and explicitly and repeatedly proclaim attainment without prompting (I'm sure you already knew who we had in mind). And for now, we can cut the jhanic attainers some slack and only focus on the Four Noble Fruits attainments. I also mentioned that luckily right now there aren't that many cases (probably just 1 single case as we speak), so it shouldn't be too much work for site admins to track and control once the suspension period is up. And if you combine both the interval ban functionality together with the posts requiring-admins' review-before-release functionality, you'd know exactly when and where that poster has re-joined after his probation period has ended.

Quite frankly, we should do something instead of nothing. Right now, with zero policy on how to handle insanity, we literally leave the door wide open for any loon to come in and crap on the virtual temple's altar. And all we could do is to passively/reactively clean up his odorous steaming piles one after another. Not the best strategy if you ask me!
Last edited by santa100 on Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SarathW
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by SarathW »

dharmacorps wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:02 pm
SarathW wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 9:56 pm
In my opinion, lay people are not prohibited from claiming the attainments provided they do not seek personal gains by doing so.
In person, sure. But anonymously, on an internet forum?
Why not?
Say if I say I am an Arahant, none of you know who I am?
SarathW is one of the most common names in Sri Lanka and India. :D
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Re: Posting frequency for "Noble" people

Post by Sam Vara »

santa100 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:36 pm
Sam Vara wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:05 pm #1. Personally, I think it's an excellent idea in that it would get rid of the obvious "problem", so your thinking on this is well-directed. But there are a couple of big drawbacks. The first is that having a Theravada site which openly restricted the posting of stream-entrants etc. seems a bit dodgy. How do we know if they are genuine or not? We would be in the awkward position of saying that there are certain states which are much desired by 99% of those who post here, but if you claim to have attained them, you'll be a second-class citizen.

#2. The second issue is how it would actually work. When they returned after the suspension, mods would have to be ready and waiting to prevent multiple postings. And how would we accurately judge whether a person was actually claiming attainments? For example, there is a difference between "I'm walking the path" and "the path has arisen for me" which is difficult to judge. Would Paul have to ask for a positive declaration, like an admission? :thinking:
I'd actually favor dharmacorps' idea, which is to ban self-proclaimed noble attainments all together for they're completely useless at best, and only sowing further doubts and divisions at worst. But since it's not an option, I'd have to find other creative ways.

For #1. The fact that a total stranger on the internet all of a sudden proclaiming themselves to have attained Noble status without prompting IS already dodgy in and of itself! I'd say out of those who self-proclaim without prompting, 99.99999% would be fake. Hence by self-proclaiming, one has already turned himself into a second-class citizen!

For #2. We can apply to those, like mentioned in #1, who outright and explicitly and repeatedly proclaim attainment without prompting (I'm sure you already knew who we had in mind). And for now, we can cut the jhanic attainers some slack and only focus on the Four Noble Fruits attainments. I also mentioned that luckily right now there aren't that many cases (probably just 1 single case as we speak), so it shouldn't be too much work for site admins to track and control once the suspension period is up. And if you combine both the interval ban functionality together with the posts requiring-admins' review-before-release functionality, you'd know exactly when and where that poster has re-joined after his probation period has ended.
I guess we already ban "Samma-SamBuddhas" because the claim is nonsensical in this age. But I would be a bit queasy about arahants, anagamis, sakadagamis and sotapannas. Deep down, it just doesn't feel right. Even though I take on board your claim about the likely frequency of fakes and deluded types. There is a monk I know who my teacher reckons to be an anagami; another poster here knows him really well. What if someone like him wanted to post here? How could we tell?

My instinct is to let freedom of speech trump convenience and a quiet life (believe me, for every post that grates on you, we deal with a dozen others!) but I'm happy to be guided by the other mods here. You make a good case, though. :anjali:
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