Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

[Alex123]

I have thought over the 4.5 nikayas amount of suttas. The question of “how much to study vs practice” and apparent lack of stream-enterers kept/keeps bothering me. I am working on this.

It seems like most people gained at least stream entry (some even arhatship) knowing very little amount of sutta material. A person comes to the Buddha, asks Him to teach the Dhamma and then within that session that person becomes stream-enterer or even an Arhat. The amount of teaching could range from a single line to a whole sutta. While we don’t have ad verbatim transcription of what was said, it is clear that due to time constraints/etc it couldn’t be that long. One of the longer (longest?) lists of contents that the Buddha taught for stream entry was: “a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper’s mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path.” [then stream entry has occurred] – Ud 5.3

No overt hints at very advance technical teachings like Anatta which are being taught almost immediately to us by the Dhamma teachers. If it was hidden there, then I am sure that this favourite Teaching would be emphasized in the above formula that happened on multiple occasions in the suttas.

An expected response might be that: “such and such person trained really well in the past, so he was already super spiritually mature”. Personally, I find it unlikely, or with a big exception that one could regress to less than ideal behaviour in which case we couldn’t judge one’s own level to blame for lack of progress. Why would a really spiritual person be a mass murderer, an assassin, follow other teacher (apparently not the brightest kind) or have really heavy kamma baggage? It is also unlikely that a non-Buddhist assassin would practice Dhamma before meeting the Buddha, changing of the heart and becoming stream-enterer on the spot.

An interesting thing is that some of the sutta Teachings that have led to Stream Entry do NOT always teach about Anatta. At least not like today. Yet today, it seems like this teaching is being used almost everywhere by almost everyone to non-Ariyans and yet many people (apparently) aren’t reaching stream entry even after a long while. Let alone Arhatship on the spot. Even on a meditation retreat. Hmmm….

Some possible ideas about the solution:
1) Seeing the Buddha in person was an Event in itself that greatly helped. I am sure that it played a role. If one would have seen the Buddha it would probably be much easier, at least confidence wise.

2) Unrecognized stream-entry. According to the suttas, a stream enterer has verified confidence in the Buddha/Dhamma/Sangha, got perfect sila from then on, and has right view. Meditation attainments (which many devout Buddhists might already have) are not explicitly required, at least not for stream.

Maybe it is wrong view to assume that stream entry has to be confirmed by some super strong mystical or paranormal event and to seek for that. No deva comes to announce this to you, and no Buddha nimitta either. So externally one person may not positively know that such-and-such is a sotapanna.

"… if these great sal trees could distinguish what is well spoken from what is ill spoken, I would proclaim these great sal trees to be Stream-Winners... bound for enlightenment,…” – SN55.24

Check out Okkanta-Samyutta. Having lots of faith, or sufficient understanding of anicca of all categories of phenomena will lead one to stream-entry in this lifetime. I assume that meditative insight would result in stream entry right here and now if the other conditions (confidence in triple gem, sila) were met.


Any comments, thoughts, ideas?

Some source, I can give more:

First teaching led to stream entry. No anatta teaching here.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN56_11.html

Later the Buddha taught the anatta teaching to these ascetics who became Arhats on the spot.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_59.html

4 qualities of stream enterer, and who can declare oneself thus.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Anāthapiṇḍika’s right view.
“Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated: That is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have.”
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/AN/AN10_93.html

Sutta where the leper looking for food heard the Buddha teach graduated Teaching which led him to stream-entry on the spot.

“a step-by-step talk, i.e., he proclaimed a talk on generosity, on virtue, on heaven; he declared the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation. Then when the Blessed One knew that Suppabuddha the leper’s mind was ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, he then gave the Dhamma-talk peculiar to Awakened Ones, i.e., stress, origination, cessation, & path. And just as a clean cloth, free of stains, would properly absorb a dye, in the same way, as Suppabuddha the leper was sitting in that very seat, the dustless, stainless Dhamma eye arose within him, “Whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation.”
Having seen the Dhamma, reached the Dhamma, known the Dhamma, gained a foothold in the Dhamma, having crossed over & beyond doubt, having had no more perplexity, having gained fearlessness & independence from others with regard to the Teacher’s message,”
https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/KN/Ud/ud5_3.html


Great Sal Trees & Sarakani.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... html#fnt-8

On the path to Stream:
Okkanta Samyutta (SN25.x)
Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear… The nose… The tongue… The body… The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable. [alex: other suttas replace the 6 sense faculties with 6 sense objects, elements, aggregates, etc. The rest of the sutta is identical]

“One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry ghosts. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

“One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry ghosts. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

“One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.”

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN25_1.html
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .html#sn25

[thepea]

It takes a continuity of practice to develop the samadhi required for insight to arise.
I would say zero sutta study is necessary if one has a qualified teacher or knows this teaching from a previous life. Entering the stream can be done quite quickly however the nibannic frution may requires the maturity of the first leg of the journey.

If stream entry is the goal then I would drop the sutta study and give all effort to continuity of practice 24 hours a day for the development of samma samadhi.

[RobertoAnces]

[...]

In my opinion right views is about views and the best and fastest way to change views is by thinking and pondering, not siting meditation (well you have to understand and see, but it's easier to see/experience if you've bothered to understand, I think.).

The Eye
Cakkhu Sutta (SN 25:1)

Near Sāvatthī. “Monks, the eye is inconstant, changeable, alterable. The ear… The nose… The tongue… The body… The mind is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

“One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry ghosts. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

“One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry ghosts. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

“One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.”

MN 2
Sabbasava Sutta: All the Fermentations
[...]
"This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?'

"As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine — the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions — is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress.
[..]

There are many suttas in this sense, but for some reason in Theravada there is no continuation of this type of practice (think and question methodically to undo the wrong views and entering in that state of unidentification).

Perhaps it is taken for granted that once one becomes a monk he will reflect on these issues by reading the suttas, guarding the sense doors ... and will become sotapanna naturally.

From now on I'm going to write heresies whoever doesn't want to read, don't read

In other traditions, this method of self-inquiry is preserved, I started with Ajahn Brahm and seeing that I was not making much progress, I switched to these traditions and used these practices and they are, in my opinion, easy and very fast (maybe they have only given worked for me).

In zen the fall of the first fetter, or awakening or first kenso is achieved through the technique of self-inquiry or koan (between others), what is mu? https://www.learnreligions.com/what-is-mu-in-zen-449929:

In advaita you also have this technique of self-inquiry to enter in the presence state https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-enqu ... _Maharshi) (¿who am I?)

Both techniques are used to unidentify from thoughts, body, emotions... if you ask me, to eliminate the first fetter, and both seem consistent with what I have seen in the suttas, I know that it is not very orthodox to recommend techniques from other traditions but this technique, which I believe is in the suttas, is lost in Theravada and has been preserved in Mahayaana and Advaita.

If you're interested, I'll put a couple of videos of teachers (both from non dualism, one zen another advaita) who I think teach the technique well:



The technique in zen mode, basically thinking about the nature of the being until you enter a unindentification mode, mainly with your thoughts, they call it awakening I understand this state as the fall of the first fetter.



Mooji even has a video of what the Buddha could have done in his day, directing a person's mind until you see that he is entering the correct state for awakening, I try to put some that I find quickly, but search if you want, it has many:



Alert: Zen has wrong views from the point of view of Theravada and Mooji plenty of wrong views, and I don't know these teacher very well I don't now if they are "arahant" or psychopaths ... just talking about the technique and showing examples of people who explain it well as It is not available in Theravada that I know of.

Later on, the closest thing I found in Theravada to guided meditation techniques using thoughts and reflection as meditation were things like this:



But nothing especially methodical designed to destroy the identification with the mind through drilling, thinking and pondering

However these traditions do emphasize anatta and nothing about gratification, danger and escape which in my opinion Zen tends to largely ignore and is 50% of the deal.

Some more random thoughts:

• Maybe you are already awake, it is understandable that someone who has been in Buddhism for a long time should be awaken, in some videos he explains what it is, if you understand it and have felt it, then that's it.
• The average time to awaken someone who practices seriously is 6 months according to Dilullo, it is a much smaller achievement than sotapanna for which Ajahn Chah spoke of about four years
• If I remember correctly, In yogakara it is call presence (but I'm almost sure I'm wrong, I looked for it out of curiosity a long time ago)

[Ceisiwr]

...

A Sotāpanna has developed the NEFP, which would mean they have insight into dependent origination (and so anatta) and will have some measure of samādhi. If that is full blown Jhāna or not is something which is debated.

Sāriputta, they speak of ‘the stream’. What is the stream?”

“Sir, the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.

Sāriputta, they speak of ‘a stream-enterer’. What is a stream-enterer?”

“Sir, anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn55.5/en/suja ... ript=latin

[wenjaforever]

And it doesn't help that heaven dwellers are always good looking and petas look like walking nightmares straight from a horror movie.

[RobertoAnces]

...

A Sotāpanna has developed the NEFP, which would mean they have insight into dependent origination (and so anatta) and will have some measure of samādhi. If that is full blown Jhāna or not is something which is debated.

Sāriputta, they speak of ‘the stream’. What is the stream?”

“Sir, the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For the stream is simply this noble eightfold path, that is: right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, and right immersion.

Sāriputta, they speak of ‘a stream-enterer’. What is a stream-enterer?”

“Sir, anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

“Good, good, Sāriputta! For anyone who possesses this noble eightfold path is called a stream-enterer, the venerable of such and such name and clan.”

https://suttacentral.net/sn55.5/en/suja ... ript=latin

Yes, that's why I returned to Theravada and suttas, in Zen, even if they say no, in my opinion everything that has to do with anatta is overemphasized and everything that has to do with DO and understanding of suffering is left far behind.

But the "technique" of thinking, pondering and contemplation may be used for understanding gratification, danger, escape too, although not done in adviata or Zen, they don't care too much. And yes for this part you have to "see" your mind, sign of your mind (I don't know if call it samadhi), you can't understand the links without "seeing" them, but just a clear mind an lots of patience needed to see them, not super samadhi powers, I already quoted a vido in other thread:


Video: For stream-entry only a clear mind needed.

"And which is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment?

"There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones notices:

"When this is, that is.

"From the arising of this comes the arising of that.

"When this isn't, that isn't.

"From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.

"In other words:

"From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.

"From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.

"From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form.

"From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media.

"From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact.

"From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling.

"From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving.

"From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance.

"From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming.

"From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.

"From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering.

"This is the noble method that he has rightly seen & rightly ferreted out through discernment."

Not big samadhi, just "looking" and noticing, and IMO not needed to see very clear all the links, just to the necessary extent to understand gratification, danger and escape of suffering.

Maybe I'm wrong but in the suttas it appears a lot of times to reflect/think about the dhamma as a way of entering the stream.

In Zen first kensho (awakening) is attained just by thinking and is maybe the more important one, much suffering is left behind when one stops self-identifying with thoughts, emotions, body, feelings..., and meditation becomes much easier when you are not identified with your thoughts, a big degree of mental clarity is almost automatic all day not just when sited ... so in my opinion just by thinking you give a big steep forward in samadhi (as understood in Zen), much bigger that you would done by counting 1,2, ... 4 for hours, and hours, and hours, or watching your breath.

[cappuccino]

and petas look like walking nightmares straight from a horror movie.

Emmett

[Alex123]

A Sotāpanna has developed the NEFP, which would mean they have insight into dependent origination (and so anatta) and will have some measure of samādhi. If that is full blown Jhāna or not is something which is debated.

Which for some people took hours if not minutes. Within a single session.

[Alex123]

In my opinion right views is about views and the best and fastest way to change views is by thinking and pondering, not siting meditation (well you have to understand and see, but it's easier to see/experience if you've bothered to understand, I think.).

Yes, it could be. What if a person has this kind of right view, is one a sotapanna (assuming sila, & saddha in triple Gem) is also present?

[cappuccino]

Which for some people took hours if not minutes. Within a single session.

You can understand Dependent Arising


Now or later

[SarathW]

I have thought over the 4.5 nikayas amount of suttas. The question of “how much to study vs practice” and apparent lack of stream-enterers kept/keeps bothering me. I am working on this.

Perhaps stop looking for Sotapanna outside there in the world.
Looking into yourself as a forum member for 13 years you can find one yourself.
However, always keep the following checklist handy.

1) Am I associating the Kalyana Mitta?
2) Do I listen to the true Dhamma from them?
3) Do I have the Yoniso Manasikara
4) Do I follow the Noble Eightfold Path

Always seeks within not without. Even contemplate Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta within not without. (however without such as Kalyanamitta etc will help too)

[RobertoAnces]

I put a video and saw this one in the same list, in this one he uses what he calls reflective questioning which in my opinion is the same as the self inquiry but oriented more towards suffering (DO).



So now that I have found a Theravada ajahn I am a little more confident, I could have spared the examples from foreign traditions.

In my opinion right views is about views and the best and fastest way to change views is by thinking and pondering, not siting meditation (well you have to understand and see, but it's easier to see/experience if you've bothered to understand, I think.).

Yes, it could be. What if a person has this kind of right view, is one a sotapanna (assuming sila, & saddha in triple Gem) is also present?

There is only a kind of right view, one begins with the mundane right view, the answer to those questions (self inquiry) is not another thought, if the answer is only a thought we do nothing, the answer is understanding/wisdom.

That you disidentify with your body is not another thought, it is a reality, it feels real, it is the simile of the six animals, seeing it as a palpable reality:

35.247. The Simile of the Six Animals https://suttacentral.net/sn35.247/en/bo ... ight=false

See how the thought animal pulls you, how when a thought arises that causes you to crave, it "pulls you" and takes you out of that state of "presence" and submerges you again in a torrent of thoughts.

See how when your eyes see a beautiful woman/men they pull you like the animal in the simile would, and it drags you to look at that person and maybe even much further away.

There are very clear signs that you are "awake", it is not a mere thought (is not information, is wisdom). The music sounds different, it sounds better, it sounds like by itself. If you listen to a podcast, it listens/understands itself. If you go for a walk to the park everything has a special shine, looks different, if you wash the dishes it seems that your body washes them itself. At the beginning it is very obvious, then it becomes normal and you don't notice so much difference anymore ...

It is explained in the videos (same youtube channel or others), or you can search for information about awakening, the Zen/non dual tradition has a lot of experience. Awakening is not stream entry but is not a game, don't underestimate it, it produces very obvious changes very difficult to misinterpret if you're a little honest with yourself.

Sila, mindfullnes, being aware all day, guarding the door of the senses, all of this is obviously non-negotiable.

You know if it's the real right view because you can escape suffering by wisdom (as SarathW says in the previous message using Yoniso Manasicara), that's the ultimate test. If you understand gratification, danger and escape of suffering you're sotapanna, you have the rigth view, you can escape of suffering by wisdom. If you can't escape from suffering by wisdom you're not sotapanna.

Another question that you can ask yourself is if I could not listen to dhamma, or read the dhamma again with what I "know" now, would I "know" enough to become an arahant without any doubt (100% sure), without any help, if the answer is yes, you're sotapanna.

If one is not a sotapanna, then this is not right view and we're wasting our time, all useless then .

[wenjaforever]

Emmett

And no, petas don't wear clothes, they're more akin to animals. Some petas are missing the upper part of their skull so that their brain is visible. Some have no eyelid. Some have no jaw. Some have no skin, all their internal organs are showing. Some are only skeletons. Some are spiked with thorns. Petas don't have a language to communicate with, unlike asuras.

[pegembara]

Svakkhato Bhagavata dhammo sanditthiko akaliko ehipassiko opanayiko
paccattam vedittabbo vinnuhiti

Well taught is the Buddha’s Dhamma, visible here and now, timeless,
inviting you to come and see, leading onwards, to be experienced
directly by the wise

Wise Attention (yoniso manasikara)

Wise attention can be described as thinking in terms of causal
relationships, such as the consequences of one’s thoughts and actions, or
exploration of the conditioned nature of phenomena which will lead to
the development of insight or wisdom. It is an essential factor that will
help a Buddhist disciple to progress through various stages of the Noble
Eight-fold Path towards Nibbana – liberation from all suffering and the
cycle of birth and death (samsara). In Buddhist literature it is also
referred to as wise reflection, critical reflection, reasoned attention, wise
consideration, systematic attention or analytical reflection among many
other terms. The Pali word Yoniso means “to the womb,” “birthplace” or
“origin” that is the essence or core of a particular matter. Manasikara
means “to do/keep something in mind” or direct the attention. Through
wise attention, one directs attention to the core or essence of a particular
matter or phenomenon in order to acquire a deep understanding of its
true nature. Through wise attention, one will see what is impermanent as
impermanent, what is unsatisfactory as unsatisfactory, what is not self as
not self and what is foul as foul.

With unwise attention (ayoniso manasikara), one does not direct attention
to the core or essence of a matter or phenomenon in order to
understand its true nature but, rather, directs attention away from them.
As a result, one may regard what is impermanent as permanent, what is
unsatisfactory as satisfactory, what is not self as self and what is foul as
beautiful. These four wrong perceptions are known as the four
perversions (vipallasa).

In practice, yoniso manasikara is attention to the ways in which all moments of experience arise and then cease, attention to the inexorable birth and death that each moment of life truly is. Seeing life this way leads to an experiential understanding of dukkha, of the ways in which life is unsatisfactory. Exactly how this seeing is done depends on the situation, the type of mental states that are present, one's tendencies toward concentration or insight, and other factors. Yet, in the Inspired Utterances, we find the Buddha saying that yoniso manasikara is the one quality that can be most helpful for one who is in training. Simply speaking, you have to find the methods that work for your particular mind, but you can surely benefit from applying wise attention.

So sages are not born only at a monastery. They arise anywhere that yoniso manasikara arises, not in one physical place, but in any place where wise attention is born.

[Ontheway]

I have thought over the 4.5 nikayas amount of suttas. The question of “how much to study vs practice” and apparent lack of stream-enterers kept/keeps bothering me. I am working on this.

Perhaps stop looking for Sotapanna outside there in the world.
Looking into yourself as a forum member for 13 years you can find one yourself.
However, always keep the following checklist handy.

1) Am I associating the Kalyana Mitta?
2) Do I listen to the true Dhamma from them?
3) Do I have the Yoniso Manasikara
4) Do I follow the Noble Eightfold Path

Always seeks within not without. Even contemplate Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta within not without. (however without such as Kalyanamitta etc will help too)

Does it have to be a living human?