Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User13866
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:59 pmRegarding Theravāda, in that system of thought nibbāna exists in it's own right, as the sole unconditioned dhamma. Insight clears the defilements revealing nibbāna, at which point the defilements are expunged from the mind. After this there is reviewing conciousness, which reviews the attainment and also reviews nibbāna which is taken as an object of the mind base (and cognised by consciousness). It's an interesting theory, and it's not all that clear what it means for nibbāna to be an external cognised object of the mind
If it's not all clear then maybe leave it alone for now...
Ceisiwr wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 8:59 pm They are asking the question, because the two things are so similar.
Sigh..the interlocutor has no freaking idea what is the cessation attainment and is trying to figure it out. Being dead is just the only thing he could think of for comparison.

It's like if a person has never seen an giraffe but only hears about it's long neck.

- Is giraffe like an ostrich? He asks
- They both have long necks, can't fly and live in warm climate. But giraffe is a big mammal whereas ostrich is a big bird.

You can't rightly say that interlocutor asks because the two are so similar.

I've given you an analogy but you are just ignoring it.

I can come up with a thousand more where i compare two different things as to delineate a difference but i don't think it matters because you have for a long time been entertaining this interpretation of yours.

Anyway i don't have anything else to add
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 9:58 pm
Sigh..the interlocutor has no freaking idea what is the cssation attainment and is trying to figure it out. Being dead is just the only thing he could think of for comparison.

It's like if a person has never seen an giraffe but only hears about it's long neck.

- Is giraffe like an ostrich? He asks
- They both have long necks, can't fly and live in warm climate. But giraffe is a big mammal whereas ostrich is a big bird.

You can't rightly say that interlocutor asks because the two are so similar.

I've given you an analogy but you are just ignoring it.

I can come up with a thousand more where i compare two different things as to delineate a difference but i don't think it matters because you have for a long time been entertaining this interpretation of yours.

Anyway i don't have anything else to add
They didn't know what the attainment is like, no, but they were aware of it either through some description or through seeing someone in it, or both. The point is that a corpse and someone in the attainment were thought of as being similar, which is why a question is asked as to how they are different. For a person in the attainment their breathing has stopped, perception & feeling (and so their mind and consciousness) has stopped but their heat and vitality (their metabolism) remains. Since it is without perception & feeling, there is no possibility of insight therein. Is there insight in the other attainments? Perhaps not. I did think the Jhāna sutta supported the idea that it's possible, to have insight in the lower attainments, but I'm beginning to question that. Anyway, that's a different topic.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User13866
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:42 pm The point is that a corpse and someone in the attainment were thought of as being similar, which is why a question is asked as to how they are different.
Both formerly & now they are thought of as being similar by people who are unlearned & clueless about what they are talking about.

I don't know what else to say... There is some similarity but there is much difference, it doesn't make the two alike as taught by you.

A dung beetle & a mountain are also similar in being of earth element and firm to touch but they are also very different.

If i ask 'what is a mountain?' you don't say 'it's like a dung beetle'.

However when asked about cessation attainment you do say it's "death-like".

The mistake you make is actually even bigger than any simile i can come up with.
Last edited by User13866 on Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:21 am, edited 6 times in total.
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Mahabrahma »

The dead (for which birth is certain) and the Deathless (for one who has overcome rebirth) are total opposites.

But both are ruled by Death Personified, which has an attribute of infinite and Eternal life.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Mahabrahma »

If you expect there to be some final Nirvana from which you disappear into entire non existence, not even maintained anymore by a God, you are mistaken. We are not threatened by non-existence. And Nibbana is Peaceful and Mettic Spiritual Bliss. Who are you convincing that you don't want to live? Too bad, no matter what we all have to live with our actions, Eternally one day.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by User13866 »

It's very wrong to teach cessation-extinguishment-principle to be like death.

Arahants don't die, they attain Parinibbana.
Dhp wrote:Verse 21.
Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless,
heedlessness, the path to death.
Those who are heedful do not die,
heedless are as if [already] dead.
If cessation-extinguishment-principle was being dead-like then parinibbana would be called parimarana as final-death.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:39 am
Ceisiwr wrote: Wed Feb 01, 2023 8:42 pm The point is that a corpse and someone in the attainment were thought of as being similar, which is why a question is asked as to how they are different.
Both formerly & now they are thought of as being similar by people who are unlearned & clueless about what they are talking about.

I don't know what else to say... There is some similarity but there is much difference, it doesn't make the two alike as taught by you.

A dung beetle & a mountain are also similar in being of earth element and firm to touch but they are also very different.

If i ask 'what is a mountain?' you don't say 'it's like a dung beetle'.

However when asked about cessation attainment you do say it's "death-like".

The mistake you make is actually even bigger than any simile i can come up with.
They are alike, which means they are similar. They are alike in that both are without breathing and both are without mind and conciousness, but different in that one is actually dead whilst the other is not.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 3:56 am If you expect there to be some final Nirvana from which you disappear into entire non existence, not even maintained anymore by a God, you are mistaken. We are not threatened by non-existence. And Nibbana is Peaceful and Mettic Spiritual Bliss. Who are you convincing that you don't want to live? Too bad, no matter what we all have to live with our actions, Eternally one day.
Thinking that I will disappear and cease is mistaken, but understanding that conditioned dhammas will cease forever is not.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 5:10 am It's very wrong to teach cessation-extinguishment-principle to be like death.

Arahants don't die, they attain Parinibbana.
Dhp wrote:Verse 21.
Heedfulness is the path to the Deathless,
heedlessness, the path to death.
Those who are heedful do not die,
heedless are as if [already] dead.
If cessation-extinguishment-principle was being dead-like then parinibbana would be called parimarana as final-death.
In the suttas Buddhas and Arahants are said to get old, sick and pass away. Of course, what really is happening is that conditioned dhammas simply decay and then cease forever, for them.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Mahabrahma »

Conditioned Dharmas at some point have to be taken up into Jhana and purified into Enlightenment, for their temporary and changing nature wreaks the havoc upon this world...
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:43 pm In the suttas Buddhas and Arahants are said to get old, sick and pass away. Of course, what really is happening is that conditioned dhammas simply decay and then cease forever, for them.
Cease forever is suffering
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:48 pm Conditioned Dharmas at some point have to be taken up into Jhana and purified into Enlightenment, for their temporary and changing nature wreaks the havoc upon this world...
Sorry, but I don't understand what this means?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:43 pm In the suttas Buddhas and Arahants are said to get old, sick and pass away. Of course, what really is happening is that conditioned dhammas simply decay and then cease forever, for them.
Cease forever is suffering
Why do you think that?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:59 pm Why do you think that?
because you would not inflict it on … an ant
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:00 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:59 pm Why do you think that?
because you would not inflict it on … an ant
That would be intentionally killing, wouldn't it? That also wouldn't result in the nibbāna for the ant, no?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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