Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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equilibrium
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by equilibrium »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:06 pm 1a)Exactly how does one "knows and sees"?
By reaching the origination, the unconditioned…..beyond the ALL.
1b) Can one give an example of what it means to "know and see"?
Different depths…..via “direct experience”…..1NT that “this is suffering”
1c) What are the wrong ways to "know and see" it?
Assuming one has a “direct experience” not beyond the ALL.
it is what you need to “know and see”
2)Is one supposed to literally think in line with "That [ignorance, etc] is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen."
There are some sutras…..
3) Or does one, without thinking, adverts one's attention to presently arisen state trying to "silently" see it arise & cease? If this is done without deliberate attention, then
Ought to be by “right thinking”.
4) what is the difference between what normal person experiences vs what Buddhist meditator experiences?
Or how?
Nothing to do with normal people / Buddhist experiences. All mundane experiences are of no use as they are all “conditioned”.
You need that “direct experience” which will reveal the 4NT as per the teachings so one can “know and see” for oneself!…..as it is “unconditioned”!…..to remove the ignorance!
wenjaforever
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by wenjaforever »

Cowardice is a vice not a virtue. A virtue is a useful trait. While a vice is a useless and unwanted trait, they're worthless and repulsive. Like stupidity. Because a coward will always choose the safe and pleasant choice rather than opting to choose doing the right thing, when Mara plays the plomo o plata card.
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

Alex123 wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 1:06 pm 1)
a)Exactly how does on "knows and sees"?
b) Can one give an example of what it means to "know and see"?
c) What are the wrong ways to "know and see" it?

2)Is one supposed to literally think in line with "That [ignorance, etc] is inconstant, fabricated, dependently co-arisen."

3) Or does one, without thinking, adverts one's attention to presently arisen state trying to "silently" see it arise & cease? If this is done without deliberate attention, then 4) what is the difference between what normal person experiences vs what Buddhist meditator experiences?
Or how?
Knowing and seeing can only occur when one can see clearly without one's desires, biases and distractions getting in the way. In other words, when you clear your mind of the hindrances then finally you can see how things really are. Knowing and seeing then is how one arrives at understanding (pañña). It is arrived at via insight or samatha leading to Jhāna, for Jhāna is what "burns up" the hindrances (another meaning of the word "Jhāna"). What does one know and see? The specific and universal characteristics of the sabhāva-dhammas. Understanding then arises through direct perception and inference. The wrong way would be to never move from the conventional reality, that of substantial entities persiting through time, to the ultimate.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ceisiwr »

equilibrium wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:03 pm By reaching the origination, the unconditioned…..beyond the ALL.
The unconditioned is included within the All.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
pegembara
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by pegembara »

What lies beyond the All, beyond forms and formlessness? Freedom!
"Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded.

The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Thus I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was living at Gaya, at Gayasisa, together with a thousand bhikkhus. There he addressed the bhikkhus.

"Bhikkhus, all is burning. And what is the all that is burning?

"The eye is burning, forms are burning, eye-consciousness is burning, eye-contact is burning, also whatever is felt as pleasant or painful or neither-painful-nor-pleasant that arises with eye-contact for its indispensable condition, that too is burning. Burning with what? Burning with the fire of lust, with the fire of hate, with the fire of delusion. I say it is burning with birth, aging and death, with sorrows, with lamentations, with pains, with griefs, with despairs.

"The ear is burning, sounds are burning...

"The nose is burning, odors are burning...

"The tongue is burning, flavors are burning...

"The body is burning, tangibles are burning...

"The mind is burning,

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .nymo.html
Where neither water nor yet earth
Nor fire nor air gain a foothold,
There gleam no stars, no sun sheds light,
There shines no moon, yet there no darkness reigns.

When a sage, a brahman, has come to know this
For himself through his own wisdom,
Then he is freed from form and formless.
Freed from pleasure and from pain
.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .irel.html
Last edited by pegembara on Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
readysetletgo
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by readysetletgo »

It seems like most people gained at least stream entry (some even arhatship) knowing very little amount of sutta material.
I am sure it has been perfected over the span of many lifetimes as one’s “parami” before reaching that point.

pāramī, pāramitā:
Perfection of the character. A group of ten qualities developed over many lifetimes by a bodhisatta, which appear as a group in the Pali canon only in the Jataka ("Birth Stories"): generosity (dāna), virtue (sīla), renunciation (nekkhamma), discernment (paññā), energy/persistence (viriya), patience/forbearance (khanti), truthfulness (sacca), determination (adhiṭṭhāna), good will (mettā), and equanimity (upekkhā). [MORE]
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Alex123
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Alex123 »

readysetletgo wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 5:50 am I am sure it has been perfected over the span of many lifetimes as one’s “parami” before reaching that point.
I struggle with this idea. How can someone who has perfected perfections (including good will, patience, renunciation, etc) end up being an assassin, or mass murderer?
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by cappuccino »

Ven. Ananda:
"It's amazing, lord, it's astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be."


The Buddha:
"Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations."


Maha-nidana Sutta
jons
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by jons »

Alex123 wrote: Wed Jan 25, 2023 3:30 pm
[/quote]

This is my opinion of studying suttas for awakening... You study and work toward the goals... The Ultimate goal is Nibbana.

First, you want to know what the feeling is or taste of Nibbana is like. So you read and reread "Samaññaphala Sutta" over and over until your mind become aware of the Buddha description of the Nibbana feel like in that Sutta.

Second, study the 4 Noble Truths... Practice meditation and contemplation on Aging, illness, and death. Then you realize the meaning of Anatta. When you see clearly the meaning of Anatta, you will have a feeling that you are a slave to your physical.

Next, you study "Gelañña Sutta" part 1 and part 2 and practice meditate to observe the sensation, or take the 10-day meditation retreat by Goenka. They are both the same principle of practice.

Practice until you see the light... The light is the brightness of your Citta. At this point, your Citta reach Access Concentration.
At this point, you must practice contemplation of your body or Asubha practice to prevent your Citta from wandering off from your body to various places.

Next, you use the technique of observe the sensation that you already learn to practice the teaching in Satipathana Sutta or Mahasatipathana Sutta.
You practice observe your feeling (vedananussati) observe your memory and mental formation (dhammanussati) and observe your Citta (Cittanussati)
When you see Avijja in your citta , then you let it goes....that is the end....the work is done

This is my opinions of what I learned from many books of Khmer tradition, Burmeses tradition, Thai Forest Tradition, abbidhamma, and suttas

peace to all

Jons
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:53 am The unconditioned is included within the All.
According to Ceisiwr The Unconditioned it's just a figure of speech, merely a name, like if i call my dog "unconditioned" and say 'see good sir the unconditionded is conditioned, included in the All'.

Ceisiwr holds that the unconditioned is a name for the absence of delusion in the Arahant's mind or the mind of an Arahant, probably not a name for Arahant's dog but it's definitely just a name for something conditioned.

There are many such figures of speech in the sutta according to this ceisiwr, words like not-born, unmade, deathless, signless, are all just a matter of speech and a name for something essentially conditioned.

As a matter of fact this ceisiwr is such that holds that in attaining parinibbana one becomes equal to a useless log of wood deprived of consciousness whereas in attaining cessation of perception & feeling one is like a warm rock with life-force.

Ceisiwr also holds that pleasure where nothing is felt is not in any way a pleasure but merely a name denoting the very absence of feeling & perception in a pebble, a rock or a useless log of wood deprived of percipience.

I hope you see how wrong this is...

If anyone [except retrofuturist, sam vara, santa100] else interprets the dhamma like this, if you want let me know and i'll explain these matters to you in private.
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by User13866 »

I've decided to explain it publicly afterall, shouldn't be greedy with dhamma.

Part 1 What means knowing & seeing

Knowing & seeing in a general sense means to know something to be like this & not otherwise and to see something to be like this & not otherwise, examples here;
"It was not long before I quickly learned the doctrine. As far as mere lip-reciting & repetition, I could speak the words of knowledge, the words of the elders, and I could affirm that I knew & saw — I, along with others.


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Yet this is still mere lip recital, one like this takes it on faith or understaning and has not obtained 'direct knowledge' 
"I thought: 'It isn't through mere conviction alone that Alara Kalama declares, "I have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge." Certainly he dwells knowing & seeing this Dhamma.' So I went to him and said, 'To what extent do you declare that you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma?' When this was said, he declared the dimension of nothingness.


"I thought: 'Not only does Alara Kalama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Alara Kalama declares he has entered & dwells in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to him and said, 'Friend Kalama, is this the extent to which you have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge?'


"'Yes, my friend...'


"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'
Having entered & dwelled in that Dhamma he attained direct knowledge and declares knowing & seeing of that Dhamma on that account.


This is how these words are ought to be used.


Part 2. What about the knowing & seeing the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One?


The controversy is such;


Is the Dhamma of the Buddha also a meditative attainment such that one can enter & dwell in it as to gain direct knowledge and on account of this proclaim knowing & seeing? 


Or is this Dhamma known & seen merely in as far as lip recitation & understanding goes?



Let's define this Dhamma
This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. 


This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me."


https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Note that the context here is that the Bodhisatta dwelled in a meditative attainment for 7 days & 7 nights and emerged from that attainment a fully awakened Buddha, an Arahant.


It would be reasonable to say that being absorbed in dependence on whatever it is that he was absorbed for 7 days & 7 nights, destroyed all taints making him an Arahant with taints removed.

If we analyze the passage we can see that there are several things going on there
This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. 


For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see.



This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.
The red part can be traced for more detail to mn64

“And what, Ānanda, is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters? Here, with seclusion from the acquisitions, with the abandoning of unwholesome states, with the complete tranquillization of bodily inertia, quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhāna, which is accompanied by applied and sustained thought, with rapture and pleasure born of seclusion.


“Whatever exists therein of material form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness, he sees those states as impermanent, as suffering, as a disease, as a tumour, as a barb, as a calamity, as an affliction, as alien, as disintegrating, as void, as not self. He turns his mind away from those states and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world. This is the path, the way to the abandoning of the five lower fetters.


https://suttacentral.net/mn64/en/bodhi? ... ight=false
Note the bolded words. Here are the definitions;
SC 1“Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion.’ Of what now, venerable sir, is this the designation?”



SC 2“This, bhikkhu, is a designation for the element of Nibbāna: the removal of lust, the removal of hatred, the removal of delusion. The destruction of the taints is spoken of in that way.”



SC 3When this was said, that bhikkhu said to the Blessed One: “Venerable sir, it is said, ‘the Deathless, the Deathless.’ What now, venerable sir, is the Deathless? What is the path leading to the Deathless?”



SC 4“The destruction of lust, the destruction of hatred, the destruction of delusion: this is called the Deathless. This Noble Eightfold Path is the path leading to the Deathless; that is, right view … right concentration.”


https://suttacentral.net/sn45.7/en/bodh ... ight=false
Based on this we can make the following assertion

This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.

Just this is the immediacy which destroyed the taints for the Bodhisatta and that it is in dependence on this Deathless element that he entered & dwelled in such samadhi for 7 days & 7 nights so that his taints were removed for his attaining of Arahantship on emergence.

Now we can ask what is it that Buddha actually teaches?

* Is it this immediacy which is the destruction of taints?

* Is it the attaining of Arahantship, a complete removal of taints?

* Is it the attaining of Parinibbana?

* all of the above?


I'll set this aside because this message is already long enough as it is.

Back to the controversy
Is the Dhamma of the Buddha also a meditative attainment such that one can enter & dwell in it as to gain direct knowledge and on account of this proclaim knowing & seeing if the dhamma?
Now let's consider another way in which the development of a person in this dhamma is talked about, canki sutta;
When, on observing that the monk is purified with regard to qualities based on delusion, he places conviction in him. With the arising of conviction, he visits him & grows close to him. Growing close to him, he lends ear. Lending ear, he hears the Dhamma. Hearing the Dhamma, he remembers it. Remembering it, he penetrates the meaning of those dhammas. Penetrating the meaning, he comes to an agreement through pondering those dhammas. There being an agreement through pondering those dhammas, desire arises. With the arising of desire, he becomes willing. Willing, he contemplates (lit: "weighs," "compares"). Contemplating, he makes an exertion. Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.

"To this extent, Bharadvaja, there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. I describe this as an awakening to the truth. But it is not yet the final attainment of the truth.

"Yes, Master Gotama, to this extent there is an awakening to the truth. To this extent one awakens to the truth. We regard this as an awakening to the truth. But to what extent is there the final attainment of the truth? To what extent does one finally attain the truth? We ask Master Gotama about the final attainment of the truth."

"The cultivation, development, & pursuit of those very same qualities: to this extent, Bharadvaja, there is the final attainment of the truth. To this extent one finally attains the truth. I describe this as the final attainment of the truth."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In summary one learns dhamma first and further by making effort one awakens to the truth and by further repeated awakening one attains the truth.

Now if we superimpose the two sutta excerpts (canki sutta + mn64) we can assert that the awakening to the truth is a 'directing of the mind to the deathless', for the destruction of fetters, and 'final attainment of truth' is the removal of all fetters [arahantship] by a repeated awakening as a 'directing of the mind to the deathless'.

We can based on this assert that here
Exerting himself, he both realizes the ultimate meaning of the truth with his body and sees by penetrating it with discernment.
This awakening to the truth entails a direct knowledge of the Dhamma (that state which is hard to see, Nibbana/Deathless) and it is not a mere knowing & seeing due to learning the dhamma, nor it's mere lip-recital, nor pondering, nor the penetration of it's meaning, nor a coming to an agreement through pondering but a entering & dwelling in the Dhamma. 

A final attainment of the truth is then the full removal of taints, Arahantship, attained by means of that very same entering & dwelling in the dhamma which is an awakening to a truth & it's direct knowledge

Summed up thus
Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.

3.2

To this extent the Buddha spoke of extinguishment [Nibbana] in the present life in a definitive sense.”


https://suttacentral.net/an9.51/en/suja ... ript=latin
It's difficult to tie all of this together so i hope it's clear what i am drawing out.


Part 3 Analogical Analysis
He turns his mind away from those states mn.i.436 and directs it towards the deathless element thus: ‘This is the peaceful, this is the sublime, that is, the stilling of all formations, the relinquishing of all attachments, the destruction of craving, dispassion, cessation, Nibbāna.’ If he is steady in that, he attains the destruction of the taints. But if he does not attain the destruction of the taints because of that desire for the Dhamma, that delight in the Dhamma, then with the destruction of the five lower fetters he becomes one due to reappear spontaneously in the Pure Abodes and there attain final Nibbāna without ever returning from that world.
In analyzing this controversy of what means 'Directing the mind to the deathless', two analogical interpretations, of a person who is asleep & dreaming, can be applied. 

A) A person is dreaming, in that dream he becomes lucid & aware thus 'i am dreaming' but he does not yet wake up. He directs his mind to awakening thus 'this is not real, i should wake up to the truth & reality of being awake' but he does not yet awaken, he keeps dreaming, but his there directing of the mind to awakening is a purification all the way to arahantship.

In other words

A person wishing to wake up from a dream would be purified by his wishing to awaken from the dream and thus he would be attaining full purification without waking up to a different truth & reality [of being awake].

Alternative interpretation

B) A person is dreaming, in that dream he becomes lucid & aware thus 'i am dreaming' but he does not yet wake up. He directs his mind to awakening thus 'this is not real, i should wake up to the truth & reality of being awake' and he does awaken, he does not keep dreaming and is percipient of a truth & reality of being awake, and by this direct knowledge of the truth & reality other than that of a dream, he is purified. 

This would be like a person waking up from a dream, then falling back to sleep and waking up again, thus being purified by his being awakened.


The difference between a & b is that they both in their own rite direct the mind to the truth & reality of being awake but only b awakens to see it as it actually.


I hope i made the difference clear. 


Analogically it can be posited that mundane percipience of being awake or dreaming is actually altogether the truth & reality of dukkha and an awakening to a different truth & reality can be directly known as it actually is and that awakening purifies a mortal. 

Hence it is said
“His deliverance, being founded upon truth, is unshakeable. For that is false, bhikkhu, which has a deceptive nature, and that is true which has an undeceptive nature—Nibbāna. Therefore a bhikkhu possessing this truth possesses the supreme foundation of truth. For this, bhikkhu, is the supreme noble truth, namely, Nibbāna, which has an undeceptive nature."

https://suttacentral.net/mn140/en/bodhi
"There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned."


The escape from that [from the conditioned], 

the peaceful, beyond reasoning [beyond objectification], 

Constant, The not-born, the unproduced,

The sorrowless state that is void of stain,

The cessation of states associated with suffering,

The stilling of the conditioned — bliss.

It would then be explained that it is that very 'alternate truth & reality' to which the wise awaken which is that immediacy in dependence on which the superlative men are absorbed
"He is absorbed dependent neither on earth, liquid, fire, wind, the sphere of the infinitude of space, the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness, the sphere of nothingness, the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, this world, the next world, nor on whatever is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, or pondered by the intellect — and yet he is absorbed. And to this excellent thoroughbred of a man, absorbed in this way, the gods, together with Indra, the Brahmas, & Pajapati, pay homage even from afar:

'Homage to you, O thoroughbred man. Homage to you, O superlative man — you of whom we don't know even what it is dependent on which you're absorbed.'"

https://theravada.vn/ati/tipitaka/an/an ... .than.html
And this very immediacy is what is talked about here
Then Ven. Ananda went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Yes, friend Ananda, he could..."

"But how, friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"

"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."

"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
The interpretation a) is reprehensible because it asserts that 'the unconditioned' is actually conditioned and is included among the conditioned. In other words it asserts that the cessation of dukkha is also dukkha.

Many people favor this interpretation and this is what they do

They assert that Unconditioned is actually a conditioned element and that it's name is not representative of what it is.

As if i had a boat and named this boat 'a woman' and was to say 'a boat is a woman'. Similarly they assert that the unconditioned is merely a name for a conditioned phenomena.

Ceisiwr from DW is a good example of one holding this view
Ceisiwr wrote:The unconditioned is included within the All.

viewtopic.php?p=712253#p712253
This is the assertion he makes;

He asserts that a person becomes an Arahant merely by a deep understanding of the Dhamma and with that he is not reborn because his mind is 'unconditioned'.

Thus he asserts that the unconditioned element is merely a name for the conditioned mind of the Arahant, hence he says "the unconditioned is included among the conditioned".

For evidence he will say
* Isn't it so that in attaining Arahantship one attains Nibbana [removal of delusion]?
* Isn't it so that Nibbana is Unconditioned?

However this is quite reprehensible because the mind of the Arahant is never in he texts called neither Nibbana or Unconditioned.

The absence of delusion in the mind of the Arahant is called 'Nibbana with residue';
“What, bhikkhus, is the Nibbāna-element with residue left? Here a bhikkhu is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed, the holy life fulfilled, who has done what had to be done, laid down the burden, attained the goal, destroyed the fetters of being, completely released through final knowledge. However, his five sense faculties remain unimpaired, by which he still experiences what is agreeable and disagreeable and feels pleasure and pain. It is the extinction of attachment, hate, and delusion in him that is called the Nibbāna-element with residue left.

https://suttacentral.net/iti44/en/irela ... ight=false
Here they make the mistake of taking that conditioned residue to be the nibbana.

Hence it is logical mistake
Nibbana with Residue = Nibbana
Residue = Nibbana

Or

A+B=A
B=A

It's is not logical. However they will say that aristotlean [classical/normal] logic doesn't apply here because A is merely a name for B.

However it doesn't really hold water because the unconditioned element is symmetrical[as opposed] to the conditioned element, hence there are two primary elements with different characteristics in the texts.
There are, Ānanda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element.

Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the conditioned. What three? An arising is seen, a vanishing is seen, and its alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the conditioned.

The born, come-to-be, produced,
The made, the conditioned, the transient,
Conjoined with decay and death,

A nest of disease, perishable,
Sprung from nutriment and craving's cord —
That is not fit to take delight in.

There are, Ānanda, these two elements: the conditioned element and the unconditioned element.

“Bhikkhus, there are these three characteristics that define the unconditioned. What three? No arising is seen, no vanishing is seen, and no alteration while it persists is seen. These are the three characteristics that define the unconditioned.”
Therfore it really is not so that the unconditioned is merely a conditioned name for something condititioned.

The unconditioned element is an altogether different truth & reality to the truth & reality of the conditioned element, hence it is said that there are two elements.

Furthermore those who hold to interpretation A) are completely lost when it comes to explaining cessation of perception & feeling.

Ceisiwr just says 'it's like being dead'. This is of course meaningless because what is that exactly?

In Theravada death is the break up of the body and a consequent taking up of another body, being dead is not really anything other than that.


If one was to criticize the interpretation B) one will say

* How can you see the unmade if there is a cessation of contact?
* How could a person see a different reality?
* How can you know & see what is not included in the world?

All of these are invalid questions that rely on the notion of 'a person' coming out of the all and going back in, which is a self view and an otherwise inappropriate use of words.
"'Having directly known the all as the all,[8] and having directly known the extent of what has not been experienced through the allness of the all, I wasn't the all, I wasn't in the all, I wasn't coming forth from the all, I wasn't "The all is mine." I didn't affirm the all. 

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Therefore these questions like 'how did you see what is beyond the all?' don't apply there.

Here is a truth & reality and it's cessation is another truth & reality, it's really simple.

My personal opinion is that it's difficult to comprehend because we want to explain what is beyond words with words.

This is really similar to trying to explain words with words; or trying to prove the merit of logic with logic.

I think that this is why it is said that Dhamma is beyond conjecture/reasoning and is to be experienced by the wise people. Doesn't mean that it's non-sensical but rather that it is beyond the usual scope of the usage of our tools.

It's really not easy to explain and i hope i don't confuse you. My advice is to take what makes sense and ignore the rest because some things might not make sense because i make mistakes in explaining.

I want to say more about how people would criticize interpretation B)

They would say

You talk about a cessation of mind but you describe it as a discernment of a different truth & reality. If there is no mind then there is no contact and therefore no discernment! If there is no contact then there is no knowledge/wisdom/understanding. You need consciousness and mental dhammas, which arise due to contact to discern anything.
[/quote]

This is essentially the same criticism as here
Now it's possible, Ananda, that some wanderers of other persuasions might say, 'Gotama the contemplative speaks of the cessation of perception & feeling and yet describes it as pleasure. What is this? How can this be?' When they say that, they are to be told, 'It's not the case, friends, that the Blessed One describes only pleasant feeling as included under pleasure. Wherever pleasure is found, in whatever terms, the Blessed One describes it as pleasure.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
In other words they would criticise saying

'You talk about a cessation of truth & reality but you describe it as a truth & reality.'

And one should probably answer thus;

I do not describe as a truth & reality only the truth & reality of dukkha [the conditioned feeling states]. Wherever truth & reality is found, in whatever terms, that i describe as a truth & reality.'

Or one can say
"I do not describe as discernment only the discernment of conditioned feeling states. Wherever discernment is found, in whatever terms, that i describe as a discernment.'

They won't like this answer but it's essentially paraphrasing the Sutta

People who criticize the interpretation B) hold that there is absolutely no discernment in cessation of perception & feeling. They hold that one is then like a rock, a pebble on the ground, or a log of wood deprived of consciousness. And they reference this mn43;
When this body lacks how many qualities does it lie discarded & forsaken, like a senseless log?"

"When this body lacks these three qualities — vitality, heat, & consciousness — it lies discarded & forsaken like a senseless log."

"What is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling?"

"In the case of the one who is dead, who has completed his time, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is exhausted, his heat subsided, & his faculties are scattered. But in the case of a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling, his bodily fabrications have ceased & subsided, his verbal fabrications ... his mental fabrications have ceased & subsided, his vitality is not exhausted, his heat has not subsided, & his faculties are exceptionally clear. This is the difference between one who is dead, who has completed his time, and a monk who has attained the cessation of perception & feeling."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
They will say ' See, cessation of perception & feeling is like being dead!'

If you ask 'but what about this part "his faculties are exceptionally clear"

Then they just quote this commentary
Bhikkhu Bodhi's endnote:
MA says that the faculties during the ordinary course of life, being impinged upon by sense objects, are afflicted and soiled like a mirror set up at a crossroads; but the faculties of one in cessation become exceptionally clear like a mirror placed in a case and deposited in a box.
It is really just meaningless and doesn't answer the question.

One can just as easily say that discernment is normally soiled by the feeling states and is made clear by their cessation. Like a car soiled by dirt on the road and not soiled when parked in a garage.

Either way it does not substantiate the idea that one who attained cessation is like a useless wooden log deprived of discernment.

Discernment is defined thus
Discernment

As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend, 'One of poor discernment, one of poor discernment': Thus is it said. To what extent is one said to be 'one of poor discernment'?"

"'One doesn't discern, one doesn't discern': Thus, friend, one is said to be 'one of poor discernment.' And what doesn't one discern? One doesn't discern, 'This is stress.' One doesn't discern, 'This is the origination of stress.' One doesn't discern, 'This is the cessation of stress.' One doesn't discern, 'This is the practice leading to the cessation of stress.' 'One doesn't discern, one doesn't discern': Thus one is said to be 'one of poor discernment.'"

Saying, "Very good, friend," Ven. Maha Kotthita — delighting in & approving of Ven. Sariputta's statement — asked him a further question: "Discerning, discerning': Thus is it said. To what extent, friend, is one said to be 'discerning'?"

"'One discerns, one discerns': Thus, friend, one is said to be 'discerning.' And what does one discern? One discerns, 'This is stress.' One discerns, 'This is the origination of stress.' One discerns, 'This is the cessation of stress.' One discerns, 'This is the practice leading to the cessation of stress.' 'One discerns, one discerns': Thus one is said to be 'discerning.'"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Then there is something called Eye of Wisdom
“Monks, there are three eyes. What three? The fleshly eye, the divine eye, and the eye of wisdom. Monks, these are the three eyes.”

This is the meaning of what the Blessed One said. So, with regard to this, it was said:

The fleshly eye, the divine eye, and the supreme eye of wisdom—these three eyes were taught by the supreme Buddha. The birth of the fleshy eye is helpful to obtain the divine eye. The arising of the knowledge of the Four Noble Truths is obtained by the unsurpassed eye of wisdom. Whoever obtains the eye of wisdom is released from all suffering.

https://suttafriends.org/sutta/itv61/
Therefore it can be proposed that 'one's faculties being exceptionally clear' is a reference to a 'seeing with discernment'.

The pali for wisdom & discernment is the same paññā.

Id assert that this very confusion is what bewilders Ven. Udayin here
I have heard that on one occasion Ven. Sariputta was staying near Rajagaha in the Bamboo Grove, the Squirrels' Feeding Sanctuary. There he said to the monks, "This Unbinding is pleasant, friends. This Unbinding is pleasant."

When this was said, Ven. Udayin said to Ven. Sariputta, "But what is the pleasure here, my friend, where there is nothing felt?"

"Just that is the pleasure here, my friend: where there is nothing felt. 

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
One can assert that pleasure where nothing is felt is the most extreme pleasure attained by cessation of perception & feeling and thus discerned with the eye of discernment on account of one's faculties being exceptionally clear.

This would be entirely according to the Sutta method.

Then if asked
"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"

"'The cessation of becoming [existence] — [is] Nibbana [Extinguishment] — the cessation of becoming[existence] —[is] Nibbana [Extinguishment]': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming [existence] —[is] Unbinding [Extinguishment] — the cessation of becoming [existence] —[is] Nibbana [ Extinguishment] ': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming [existence] —[is] Nibbana [Extinguishment].'"
There are these two interpretations.

* One which is deep, hard to see, subtle & beyond conjecture.
* Another which is very simple to understand where the unconditioned is included in the conditioned and cessation of percipiece is a state of being dead-like as a useless heated log.
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mjaviem
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

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User13866 wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 12:44 pm I've decided to...
Excellent posting.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Kilaya Ciriello
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Kilaya Ciriello »

I really appreciate and feel benefited by all that has been shared above. Thank you all.

My question is, having read the well-put description above, would it be correct to say that one who has obtained the goal, who has gone beyond suffering, wouldn't care if Nibbana is conditioned or unconditioned, is part of the All or not? Wouldn't care if the state of cessation of perception of feeling was alive or dead? Wouldn't someone who has obtained the goal dwell in a permanent state of happiness and relief, knowing that whatever it is, whenever it is, wherever it is, it is ending? And if that is so, then the only mark of a delivered mind is the absence of suffering and the absence of anything that possibly could grow into states of suffering/affliction (latent seeds of suffering)? Am I within the Dhamma as the venerable one has described it, if I consider it in this way?

Thanks again for your efforts here to explain the proper way to consider the Dhamma, the goal.
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mjaviem
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by mjaviem »

Kilaya Ciriello wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 4:31 pm I really appreciate and feel benefited by all that has been shared above. Thank you all.

My question is, having read the well-put description above, would it be correct to say that one who has obtained the goal, who has gone beyond suffering, wouldn't care if Nibbana is conditioned or unconditioned, is part of the All or not? Wouldn't care if the state of cessation of perception of feeling was alive or dead? Wouldn't someone who has obtained the goal dwell in a permanent state of happiness and relief, knowing that whatever it is, whenever it is, wherever it is, it is ending? And if that is so, then the only mark of a delivered mind is the absence of suffering and the absence of anything that possibly could grow into states of suffering/affliction (latent seeds of suffering)? Am I within the Dhamma as the venerable one has described it, if I consider it in this way?

Thanks again for your efforts here to explain the proper way to consider the Dhamma, the goal.
What do you mean by caring? They understand. Which is the opposite of not understanding though not caring about. They clearly see conditioned dhammas as conditioned dhammas and the unconditioned as unconditioned, they see the cessation of perception and feeling, they recognize working faculties and dead faculties.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
Jack19990101
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Jack19990101 »

Mudita.
agree. High quality post with relevancy & to-the-point sutta ref.
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