Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
SarathW
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by SarathW »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:39 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:13 am
I have thought over the 4.5 nikayas amount of suttas. The question of “how much to study vs practice” and apparent lack of stream-enterers kept/keeps bothering me. I am working on this.
Perhaps stop looking for Sotapanna outside there in the world.
Looking into yourself as a forum member for 13 years you can find one yourself. :jumping:
However, always keep the following checklist handy.

1) Am I associating the Kalyana Mitta?

2) Do I listen to the true Dhamma from them?
3) Do I have the Yoniso Manasikara
4) Do I follow the Noble Eightfold Path

Always seeks within not without. Even contemplate Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta within not without. (however without such as Kalyanamitta etc will help too)
:anjali:
Does it have to be a living human? :reading:
I would say yes.
Buddha did not write his teaching in books.
Even after Buddha's Parinibbana, the Arahants did not write the teaching in written form.
They did not have a telephone or the internet.
Perhaps Buddha would have used the internet if it was available in his time.
However, I do not think he will carry a mobile phone or a laptop with him. :D

There are many Buddhist stories that Buddha taught remotely via messengers. (Girimananda Sutta etc)
So if you can find a Kalyanamitta in Dhamma Wheel perhaps you can become an Arahant. :tongue:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ontheway »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:56 am
Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:39 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:13 am
Perhaps stop looking for Sotapanna outside there in the world.
Looking into yourself as a forum member for 13 years you can find one yourself. :jumping:
However, always keep the following checklist handy.

1) Am I associating the Kalyana Mitta?

2) Do I listen to the true Dhamma from them?
3) Do I have the Yoniso Manasikara
4) Do I follow the Noble Eightfold Path

Always seeks within not without. Even contemplate Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta within not without. (however without such as Kalyanamitta etc will help too)
:anjali:
Does it have to be a living human? :reading:
I would say yes.
Buddha did not write his teaching in books.
Even after Buddha's Parinibbana, the Arahants did not write the teaching in written form.
They did not have a telephone or the internet.
Perhaps Buddha would have used the internet if it was available in his time.
However, I do not think he will carry a mobile phone or a laptop with him. :D

There are many Buddhist stories that Buddha taught remotely via messengers. (Girimananda Sutta etc)
So if you can find a Kalyanamitta in Dhamma Wheel perhaps you can become an Arahant. :tongue:
You must be joking.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
Bundokji
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Bundokji »

A sotapanna as one of the four stages of sainthood is only relevant in a sammasambuddha dispensation, of which Anatta is akin to a master-key that is only held by the Buddha (the master). The doctrinal significance of anatta has little to do with the individual practitioner, and more to do with falsifying the universality of atta and presenting a higher truth to the world. For the individual practitioner, mundane right view is the key where there can only be one sammasambuddha in a solar system. Encountering the Buddha, or one of his noble disciple, through hearing the dhamma, is the decisive factor for attaining the supramundane path. Trying to grasp anatta, or becoming the holder of the master-key, leads nowhere.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by SarathW »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:14 am A sotapanna as one of the four stages of sainthood is only relevant in a sammasambuddha dispensation, of which Anatta is akin to a master-key that is only held by the Buddha (the master). The doctrinal significance of anatta has little to do with the individual practitioner, and more to do with falsifying the universality of atta and presenting a higher truth to the world. For the individual practitioner, mundane right view is the key where there can only be one sammasambuddha in a solar system. Encountering the Buddha, or one of his noble disciple, through hearing the dhamma, is the decisive factor for attaining the supramundane path. Trying to grasp anatta, or becoming the holder of the master-key, leads nowhere.
This is not definitely Theravada Buddhism.
What is the source of your view?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bundokji
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:49 am This is not definitely Theravada Buddhism.
What is the source of your view?
Which part is "not definitely Theravada Buddhism"? can you be more specific?

Do you know of any paccekabuddhas who established a noble sangha? or taught anatta? :roll:
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
SarathW
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by SarathW »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:49 am
Bundokji wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 7:14 am A sotapanna as one of the four stages of sainthood is only relevant in a sammasambuddha dispensation, of which Anatta is akin to a master-key that is only held by the Buddha (the master). The doctrinal significance of anatta has little to do with the individual practitioner, and more to do with falsifying the universality of atta and presenting a higher truth to the world. For the individual practitioner, mundane right view is the key where there can only be one sammasambuddha in a solar system. Encountering the Buddha, or one of his noble disciple, through hearing the dhamma, is the decisive factor for attaining the supramundane path. Trying to grasp anatta, or becoming the holder of the master-key, leads nowhere.
This is not definitely Theravada Buddhism.
What is the source of your view?
I can't make sense out of the highlighted phrases.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Bundokji
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:57 pm

Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Bundokji »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:12 am I can't make sense out of the highlighted phrases.
Coloring sentences is not being specific.

Again, Do you know of any paccekabuddhas who established a noble sangha? or taught anatta?

Do you know of any sotapannas, from the suttas, who attained it by themselves, without encountering the sammasambuddha or one of his noble disciples?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
Ontheway
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Ontheway »

Anatta is the cornerstone of Buddhism. Without Anatta teaching, there is no Buddhism.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
wenjaforever
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by wenjaforever »

The goal of Buddhism is to defeat or escape samsara
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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Alex123
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Alex123 »

pegembara wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:16 am Wise Attention (yoniso manasikara)
I like to translate Yoniso Manasikara as "Attention going to the "womb"/source of phenomena". What phenomena? Those mental things that lead to suffering and its cessation. All dukkha arise from the mind, and the mind can be changed to make dukkha cease.

If the reflection in the mirror is dirty, clean your face, not the mirror.

IMHO.
Joe.c
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by Joe.c »

Outsider who wants to be a Stream enterer just needs to hear dhamma from good person (ideally an ariya) with focus attention such as this:

“a step-by-step talk, i.e.,
1. he proclaimed a talk on generosity,
2. on virtue, why virtue can lead to good places (#3) & Abandon the akusala (lower realms)
3. on heaven;
4. the drawbacks, degradation, & corruption of sensuality, and the rewards of renunciation.

Then when one's mind is ready, malleable, free from hindrances, elevated, & clear, one needs to SEE:

5. 4NT, i.e., dukkha, origination, cessation, & path.

Once attain the path, then perfected the precepts daily to gain the fruit/result. This means one HAS 4 factors of stream enterer.

It is impossible for stream enterer to do these:
fully develop sense restraint yet.
fully develop sati/samadhi yet.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
thepea
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by thepea »

Ontheway wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:39 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:13 am
I have thought over the 4.5 nikayas amount of suttas. The question of “how much to study vs practice” and apparent lack of stream-enterers kept/keeps bothering me. I am working on this.
Perhaps stop looking for Sotapanna outside there in the world.
Looking into yourself as a forum member for 13 years you can find one yourself. :jumping:
However, always keep the following checklist handy.

1) Am I associating the Kalyana Mitta?

2) Do I listen to the true Dhamma from them?
3) Do I have the Yoniso Manasikara
4) Do I follow the Noble Eightfold Path

Always seeks within not without. Even contemplate Anicca, Dukkha, and Anatta within not without. (however without such as Kalyanamitta etc will help too)
:anjali:
Does it have to be a living human? :reading:
If one was alone on an island, how?
RobertoAnces
Posts: 89
Joined: Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:12 pm

Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by RobertoAnces »

pegembara wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:16 am Svakkhato Bhagavata dhammo sanditthiko akaliko ehipassiko opanayiko
paccattam vedittabbo vinnuhiti

Well taught is the Buddha’s Dhamma, visible here and now, timeless,
inviting you to come and see, leading onwards, to be experienced
directly by the wise

Wise Attention (yoniso manasikara)

[...]
Beautiful, good explanation, little attention is usually paid to yosino manasikara and IMO is the pass to liberation. It is what makes a sotapanna sotapanna and what allows him to continue advancing on the path.

IMO it should be added that yonsino manasickara is thought/volition but it is not discursive thinking, that is why when doing the self-inquiry or in the instructions of the other theravada ajahn, it is said ask the question (to direct your mind in the correct direction) but don't answer it (let your mind work on the answer "in the background"), wisdom is not a discursive thought, it is a feeling/intuition/insight , the answer is not information.

If I ask how you feel, the answer for you is not a thought, it is something else, it is instantaneous, it is intuitive, in is clear/obvious, in fact trying to put it into words would cost you effort and would not correctly reflect your experience.

Yosino manasikara is paying attention and letting the mind do its work, there is volition without thought. It is an animal-like thought, animals think, they have intelligence, but they do not have vocabulary or discursive thought.

We see that in the first jhana there is discrusive tinking and yoshino manasikara, in the second jhana there is no discursive thinking but there is still yosino manasikara, in the third, fourth ... there is still yosino manasikara.

That's why in another thread I said that IMO without rigth view there is no samma samdhi, right view came first as Budha said in suttas.

IMO, if we read MN 111:
Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Sāvatthi, at Jeta‘s Grove, in Anāthapiṇḍika‘s Park. There the Blessed One addressed the monks: “Monks!” “Auspicious sir,” those monks replied to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said this:

“Monks, Sāriputta is wise. Monks, Sāriputta has great wisdom. Monks, Sāriputta has broad wisdom. Monks, Sāriputta has joyous1 wisdom. Monks, Sāriputta has quick wisdom. Monks, Sāriputta has sharp wisdom. Monks, Sāriputta has penetrating wisdom. Monks, every half-month, Sāriputta insightfully sees progressive2 phenomena. Monks, this is Sāriputta‘s insightful vision3 of progressive phenomena in that case:

“Here, monks, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unwholesome phenomena, Sāriputta attains and remains in the first jhāna, which has thought and consideration, and has rapture and pleasure produced by seclusion. The phenomena which are present in the first jhāna – thought, consideration, rapture, pleasure, mental one-pointedness, sense-contact, feeling, recognition, volition, mentality, interest, resolve, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention4 – are progressively identified by him. These phenomena are known by him as they arise, as they persist, and as they disappear. He understands in this way: ‘It seems that these phenomena were not present, then they manifested; then after being present, they vanished again.’ In regard to those phenomena, he remains unattracted, unrepelled, independent, unattached, released, unbound, with an unrestricted mind. He understands, ‘There is an escape beyond this.’ Practicing that frequently, he knows that there is a further escape.5

“Again, monks, with the calming of thought and consideration, and with internal composure6 and mental focus7, Sāriputta attains and remains in the second jhāna, which is free of thought and free of consideration, and has rapture and pleasure born from concentration. The phenomena which are present in the second jhāna – internal composure, rapture, pleasure, mental one-pointedness, sense-contact, feeling, recognition, volition, mentality, interest, resolve, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention – are progressively identified by him. These phenomena are known by him as they arise, as they persist, and as they disappear. He understands in this way: ‘It seems that these phenomena were not present, then they manifested; then after being present, they vanished again.’ In regard to those phenomena, he remains unattracted, unrepelled, independent, unattached, released, unbound, with an unrestricted mind. He understands, ‘There is an escape beyond this.’ Practicing that frequently, he knows that there is a further escape.

[...]

Wisdom cannot arise without yosino manasikara, there is no yosino manasikara if you aren't sotapanna. So IMO there is no samma samadhi without rigth view.
Alex123 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:04 pm
pegembara wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:16 am Wise Attention (yoniso manasikara)
I like to translate Yoniso Manasikara as "Attention going to the "womb"/source of phenomena". What phenomena? Those mental things that lead to suffering and its cessation. All dukkha arise from the mind, and the mind can be changed to make dukkha cease.

If the reflection in the mirror is dirty, clean your face, not the mirror.

IMHO.
In my opinion that's only half of the equation, you have to attend to the right things in the right order.

You have to attend to the links of the DO, but it must be done in the right order, you can attend to the right things in the wrong way and then we do nothing.

Puthujana can attend to the right things, with a little patience and mental clarity he can see the links of DO, feeling, thought, craving... but he doesn't do it in the right order, he doesn't do it with right view, he believes/feels there is a self, me, mine, he thoughts, sees, ...

And how do we know when he does it in the correct order?, when he has understood DO sufficiently for stream-entry, when he sees them as something foreign, when he sees their thoughts, emotions, feeling... as not me, mine, myself ..., and this is not a thought, it is a reality for him...

Before Yosino Manasikara one must detach from his aggregates.

If when you meditate you feel I think, I meditate, I do, these are my feelings, you are not doing it correctly, you are perpetuating delusion, you are not advancing. You need yosino manasickara to meditate properly.

In MN 111 it is clear, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self, but there are even more clear suttas:

On one occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then Ven. Maha Kotthita, emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning."


"Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained once-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained once-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of non-returning."

"Then which things should a monk who has attained non-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"

"A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship."

"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"

"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
So alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self must be debeloped before yosino manasikara in my opinion, and there is no rigth meditation if you're not attending thing with alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self, and alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self is not a thought or a vague idea in your mind is a reality for you.

It would be interesting to hear some criticism or feedback or something, I start to get the feeling that I write for myself in the forum :?

:namaste:
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cappuccino
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by cappuccino »

wenjaforever wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:13 am And no, petas don't wear clothes, they're more akin to animals.
I met a ghost and she looked normal


Her clothes were old fashioned


I heard she was haunting a house 30 years later
wenjaforever
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Re: Where is everyone (sotapanna-s)? or Sutta study for Awakening.

Post by wenjaforever »

I think being a sotapana is like a person who jumps in a train and it will take you to the destination. Once you realized the dhamma, it's like realizing which train you have to take to get you to your destination. But what is a sotapana? And what is the dhamma?
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
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