pegembara wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:16 am
Svakkhato Bhagavata dhammo sanditthiko akaliko ehipassiko opanayiko
paccattam vedittabbo vinnuhiti
Well taught is the Buddha’s Dhamma, visible here and now, timeless,
inviting you to come and see, leading onwards, to be experienced
directly by the wise
Wise Attention (yoniso manasikara)
[...]
Beautiful, good explanation, little attention is usually paid to yosino manasikara and IMO is the pass to liberation. It is what makes a sotapanna sotapanna and what allows him to continue advancing on the path.
IMO it should be added that yonsino manasickara is thought/volition but it
is not discursive thinking, that is why when doing the self-inquiry or in the instructions of the other theravada ajahn, it is said ask the question (to direct your mind in the correct direction) but don't answer it (let your mind work on the answer "in the background"), wisdom is not a discursive thought, it is a feeling/intuition/insight , the answer is not information.
If I ask how you feel, the answer for you is not a thought, it is something else, it is instantaneous, it is intuitive, in is clear/obvious, in fact trying to put it into words would cost you effort and would not correctly reflect your experience.
Yosino manasikara is paying attention and letting the mind do its work, there is volition without thought. It is an animal-like thought, animals think, they have intelligence, but they do not have vocabulary or discursive thought.
We see that in the first jhana there is discrusive tinking and yoshino manasikara, in the second jhana there is no discursive thinking but there is still yosino manasikara, in the third, fourth ... there is still yosino manasikara.
That's why in another thread I said that IMO without rigth view there is no samma samdhi, right view came first as Budha said in suttas.
IMO, if we read MN 111:
Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Sāvatthi, at Jeta‘s Grove, in Anāthapiṇḍika‘s Park. There the Blessed One addressed the monks: “Monks!” “Auspicious sir,” those monks replied to the Blessed One. The Blessed One said this:
“Monks, Sāriputta is wise. Monks, Sāriputta has great wisdom. Monks, Sāriputta has broad wisdom. Monks, Sāriputta has joyous1 wisdom. Monks, Sāriputta has quick wisdom. Monks, Sāriputta has sharp wisdom. Monks, Sāriputta has penetrating wisdom. Monks, every half-month, Sāriputta insightfully sees progressive2 phenomena. Monks, this is Sāriputta‘s insightful vision3 of progressive phenomena in that case:
“Here, monks, secluded from sensuality, secluded from unwholesome phenomena, Sāriputta attains and remains in the first jhāna, which has thought and consideration, and has rapture and pleasure produced by seclusion. The phenomena which are present in the first jhāna – thought, consideration, rapture, pleasure, mental one-pointedness, sense-contact, feeling, recognition, volition, mentality, interest, resolve, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention4 – are progressively identified by him. These phenomena are known by him as they arise, as they persist, and as they disappear. He understands in this way: ‘It seems that these phenomena were not present, then they manifested; then after being present, they vanished again.’ In regard to those phenomena, he remains unattracted, unrepelled, independent, unattached, released, unbound, with an unrestricted mind. He understands, ‘There is an escape beyond this.’ Practicing that frequently, he knows that there is a further escape.5
“Again, monks, with the calming of thought and consideration, and with internal composure6 and mental focus7, Sāriputta attains and remains in the second jhāna, which is free of thought and free of consideration, and has rapture and pleasure born from concentration. The phenomena which are present in the second jhāna – internal composure, rapture, pleasure, mental one-pointedness, sense-contact, feeling, recognition, volition, mentality, interest, resolve, energy, mindfulness, equanimity, and attention – are progressively identified by him. These phenomena are known by him as they arise, as they persist, and as they disappear. He understands in this way: ‘It seems that these phenomena were not present, then they manifested; then after being present, they vanished again.’ In regard to those phenomena, he remains unattracted, unrepelled, independent, unattached, released, unbound, with an unrestricted mind. He understands, ‘There is an escape beyond this.’ Practicing that frequently, he knows that there is a further escape.
[...]
Wisdom cannot arise without yosino manasikara, there is no yosino manasikara if you aren't sotapanna. So IMO there is no samma samadhi without rigth view.
Alex123 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:04 pm
pegembara wrote: ↑Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:16 am
Wise Attention (yoniso manasikara)
I like to translate Yoniso Manasikara as "
Attention going to the "womb"/source of phenomena". What phenomena? Those mental things that lead to suffering and its cessation. All dukkha arise from the mind, and the mind can be changed to make dukkha cease.
If the reflection in the mirror is dirty, clean your face, not the mirror.
IMHO.
In my opinion t
hat's only half of the equation, you have to attend to the right things in the right order.
You have to attend to the links of the DO,
but it must be done in the right order, you can attend to the right things in the wrong way and then we do nothing.
Puthujana can attend to the right things, with a little patience and mental clarity he can see the links of DO, feeling, thought, craving... but he doesn't do it in the right order, he doesn't do it with right view, he believes/feels there is a self, me, mine, he thoughts, sees, ...
And how do we know when he does it in the correct order?, when he has understood DO sufficiently for stream-entry, when he sees them as something foreign, when he sees their thoughts, emotions, feeling... as not me, mine, myself ...,
and this is not a thought, it is a reality for him...
Before Yosino Manasikara one must detach from his aggregates.
If when you meditate you feel I think, I meditate, I do, these are my feelings, you are not doing it correctly, you are perpetuating delusion, you are not advancing. You need yosino manasickara to meditate properly.
In MN 111 it is clear,
alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self, but there are even more clear suttas:
On one occasion Ven. Sariputta & Ven. Maha Kotthita were staying near Varanasi in the Deer Park at Isipatana. Then Ven. Maha Kotthita, emerging from seclusion in the late afternoon, went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Sariputta my friend, which things should a virtuous monk attend to in an appropriate way?"
"A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? Form as a clinging-aggregate, feeling... perception... fabrications... consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry."
"Then which things should a monk who has attained stream-entry attend to in an appropriate way?"
"A monk who has attained stream-entry should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained stream-entry, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of once-returning."
"Then which things should a monk who has attained once-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"
"A monk who has attained once-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained once-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of non-returning."
"Then which things should a monk who has attained non-returning attend to in an appropriate way?"
"A monk who has attained non-returning should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a monk who has attained non-returning, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant... not-self, would realize the fruit of arahantship."
"Then which things should an arahant attend to in an appropriate way?"
"An arahant should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Although, for an arahant, there is nothing further to do, and nothing to add to what has been done, still these things — when developed & pursued — lead both to a pleasant abiding in the here-&-now and to mindfulness & alertness."
So
alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self must be debeloped before yosino manasikara in my opinion, and there is no rigth meditation if you're not attending thing with
alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self, and alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self
is not a thought or a vague idea in your mind is a reality for you.
It would be interesting to hear some criticism or feedback or something, I start to get the feeling that I write for myself in the forum