In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

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zan
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In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

I've heard it said that engaged Buddhism, which gets into politics, is against the Buddha's teaching. Where is this in the suttas?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
SarathW
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SarathW »

zan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:12 am I've heard it said that engaged Buddhism, which gets into politics, is against the Buddha's teaching. Where is this in the suttas?
Only monastics are not allowed to engage in politics, not the lay people.
A bhikkhu's wrong mode of livelihood also includes:

"running messages and errands for kings, ministers of state, householders, etc. A modern example would be participating in political campaigns." (BMC p.152)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... livelihood
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
zan
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:28 am
zan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:12 am I've heard it said that engaged Buddhism, which gets into politics, is against the Buddha's teaching. Where is this in the suttas?
Only monastics are not allowed to engage in politics, not the lay people.
A bhikkhu's wrong mode of livelihood also includes:

"running messages and errands for kings, ministers of state, householders, etc. A modern example would be participating in political campaigns." (BMC p.152)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... livelihood
Thanks. I believe there's more than just this sutta quote, though, no? I remember an article I read on this issue a decade ago, and the author made the case using several different lines of reasoning from the suttas. Unfortunately, I can't find the article again, and don't know who the author was.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
pegembara
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by pegembara »

"Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not."

"It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Now on that occasion Potthapada the wanderer was sitting with his large following of wanderers, all making a great noise & racket, discussing many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not. Then Potthapada the wanderer saw the Blessed One coming from afar, and on seeing him, hushed his following: "Be quiet, good sirs. Don't make any noise. Here comes Gotama the contemplative. He is fond of quietude and speaks in praise of quietude. Maybe, if he perceives our group as quiet, he will consider it worth his while to come our way." So the wanderers fell silent.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
SarathW
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SarathW »

zan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:00 am
SarathW wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:28 am
zan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:12 am I've heard it said that engaged Buddhism, which gets into politics, is against the Buddha's teaching. Where is this in the suttas?
Only monastics are not allowed to engage in politics, not the lay people.
A bhikkhu's wrong mode of livelihood also includes:

"running messages and errands for kings, ministers of state, householders, etc. A modern example would be participating in political campaigns." (BMC p.152)
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... livelihood
Thanks. I believe there's more than just this sutta quote, though, no? I remember an article I read on this issue a decade ago, and the author made the case using several different lines of reasoning from the suttas. Unfortunately, I can't find the article again, and don't know who the author was.
Yes, many Buddhist monks involve in politics.
They also greatly change the direction of many corrupt politicians.
Buddhism is practiced on many levels the same way the monks also practice on many levels. For instance, Mahayana places heavy importance on social and political actions.
I have nothing against them but all these actions are still worldly.
The greatest political expression of a Buddhist monk.
All the videos are now removed from Youtube!
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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robertk
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by robertk »

https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/Tiracchana-katha

Tiracchāna-kathā: 'low talk', lit. 'beastly talk', is the name in the sutta-texts for the following:;Talk about kings and robbers, ministers and armies, danger and war, eating and drinking, clothes and dwellings, garlands and scents, relations, chariots, villages and markets, towns and districts, women and heroes, street talks, talks by the well, talk about those departed in days gone by, tittle-tattle, talks about world and sea, about gain and loss; A.X, 69 etc..

In the commentaries 4 further kinds are enumerated, thus bringing the number to 32, as mostly counted, namely: talk about sense-enjoyment, self-mortification, eternity and self-annihilation
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Mumfie
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by Mumfie »

In the Dasadhamma Sutta's ten subjects for frequent recollection by those gone forth, I think that all the ones marked in bold ought to make a monk think twice about occupying his time with political and social activism. It's just not what faithful householders feed them for.
“Bhikkhus, there are these ten things that one who has gone forth should often reflect upon. What ten?

(1) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I have entered upon a classless condition.’

[Other translators have, “... the state of an outcaste” and “... a status different from my former one”]

(2) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘My living is dependent upon others.’

(3) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘My deportment should be different.’

(4) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do I reproach myself in regard to virtuous behavior?’

(5) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do my wise fellow monks, having investigated, reproach me in regard to virtuous behavior?’

(6) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I must be parted and separated from everyone and everything dear and agreeable to me.’

(7) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.’

(8) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘How am I spending my nights and days?’

(9) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do I take delight in empty huts?’

(10) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Have I attained any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, so that in my last days, when I am questioned by my fellow monks, I will not be embarrassed?’

“These, bhikkhus, are the ten things that one who has gone forth should often reflect upon.”
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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SDC
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SDC »

Aside from some of the good examples cited above, when you take a look at any sutta where the Buddha is questioned about a worldly affair, there is not one case where the worldly is prioritized above the goal of the holy life. Sure, the Buddha conversed with leaders and citizens of great influence, and offered them advice on matters that were important to them, but he made it clear that the holy life was supreme among any matter.

So, isn’t so much that there was any recommendation against involvement, but simply, dedication to worldly affairs - even in cases where the world is improved - does not imply any development in the holy life. If the practice is not simultaneously being taken up on the personal, interior level, effort put into reducing the suffering of others is not an inroad to the four noble truths. The Buddha could not have been more clear on this.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
Bundokji
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by Bundokji »

Indeed, the path that leads to worldly gain is one and the Path that leads to Nibbana is another. Fully comprehending this, the bhikkhu, the disciple of the Buddha, should not take delight in worldly gain and honour, but devote himself to solitude, detachment and the realization of Nibbana.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
zan
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

pegembara wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:05 am "Just now, lord, after the meal, on returning from our alms round, we gathered at the meeting hall and got engaged in many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not."

"It isn't right, monks, that sons of good families, on having gone forth out of faith from home to the homeless life, should get engaged in such topics of conversation, i.e., conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state... talk of whether things exist or not.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

Now on that occasion Potthapada the wanderer was sitting with his large following of wanderers, all making a great noise & racket, discussing many kinds of bestial topics of conversation: conversation about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not. Then Potthapada the wanderer saw the Blessed One coming from afar, and on seeing him, hushed his following: "Be quiet, good sirs. Don't make any noise. Here comes Gotama the contemplative. He is fond of quietude and speaks in praise of quietude. Maybe, if he perceives our group as quiet, he will consider it worth his while to come our way." So the wanderers fell silent.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
Well! That settles it once and for all! Politics and social drama and the dhamma are water and oil.

Much appreciated!
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:48 pm
Indeed, the path that leads to worldly gain is one and the Path that leads to Nibbana is another. Fully comprehending this, the bhikkhu, the disciple of the Buddha, should not take delight in worldly gain and honour, but devote himself to solitude, detachment and the realization of Nibbana.
That is helpful, thanks.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

robertk wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:30 am https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/Tiracchana-katha

Tiracchāna-kathā: 'low talk', lit. 'beastly talk', is the name in the sutta-texts for the following:;Talk about kings and robbers, ministers and armies, danger and war, eating and drinking, clothes and dwellings, garlands and scents, relations, chariots, villages and markets, towns and districts, women and heroes, street talks, talks by the well, talk about those departed in days gone by, tittle-tattle, talks about world and sea, about gain and loss; A.X, 69 etc..

In the commentaries 4 further kinds are enumerated, thus bringing the number to 32, as mostly counted, namely: talk about sense-enjoyment, self-mortification, eternity and self-annihilation
Thanks! This solves the issue entirely!
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

Mumfie wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:37 am In the Dasadhamma Sutta's ten subjects for frequent recollection by those gone forth, I think that all the ones marked in bold ought to make a monk think twice about occupying his time with political and social activism. It's just not what faithful householders feed them for.
“Bhikkhus, there are these ten things that one who has gone forth should often reflect upon. What ten?

(1) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I have entered upon a classless condition.’

[Other translators have, “... the state of an outcaste” and “... a status different from my former one”]

(2) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘My living is dependent upon others.’

(3) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘My deportment should be different.’

(4) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do I reproach myself in regard to virtuous behavior?’

(5) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do my wise fellow monks, having investigated, reproach me in regard to virtuous behavior?’

(6) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I must be parted and separated from everyone and everything dear and agreeable to me.’

(7) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.’

(8) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘How am I spending my nights and days?’

(9) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Do I take delight in empty huts?’

(10) “One who has gone forth should often reflect: ‘Have I attained any superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones, so that in my last days, when I am questioned by my fellow monks, I will not be embarrassed?’

“These, bhikkhus, are the ten things that one who has gone forth should often reflect upon.”
Excellent, thanks!
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
zan
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

SDC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:17 pm Aside from some of the good examples cited above, when you take a look at any sutta where the Buddha is questioned about a worldly affair, there is not one case where the worldly is prioritized above the goal of the holy life. Sure, the Buddha conversed with leaders and citizens of great influence, and offered them advice on matters that were important to them, but he made it clear that the holy life was supreme among any matter.

So, isn’t so much that there was any recommendation against involvement, but simply, dedication to worldly affairs - even in cases where the world is improved - does not imply any development in the holy life. If the practice is not simultaneously being taken up on the personal, interior level, effort put into reducing the suffering of others is not an inroad to the four noble truths. The Buddha could not have been more clear on this.
Thanks. All good points. Though, some of the suttas quoted above do make very clear recommendations against involvement.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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SDC
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SDC »

zan wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:31 pm
SDC wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:17 pm Aside from some of the good examples cited above, when you take a look at any sutta where the Buddha is questioned about a worldly affair, there is not one case where the worldly is prioritized above the goal of the holy life. Sure, the Buddha conversed with leaders and citizens of great influence, and offered them advice on matters that were important to them, but he made it clear that the holy life was supreme among any matter.

So, isn’t so much that there was any recommendation against involvement, but simply, dedication to worldly affairs - even in cases where the world is improved - does not imply any development in the holy life. If the practice is not simultaneously being taken up on the personal, interior level, effort put into reducing the suffering of others is not an inroad to the four noble truths. The Buddha could not have been more clear on this.
Thanks. All good points. Though, some of the suttas quoted above do make very clear recommendations against involvement.
Absolutely, but there are also quite a number of cases of the Buddha advising the laity about how best to conduct themselves in their lay lifestyles, and those cases are often the ones taken out of the broader context of liberation and used as justification for the argument that the Buddha encouraged social and political efforts as part of a Dhamma lifestyle. Very important that this distinction is emphasized. Yes, the Buddha was sure to say, if you want this societal situation/change, then such and such is the best way to go about it, but was clear that any such worldly accomplishment does not necessarily imply development in Dhamma on that individual level, which requires a whole other application of effort.

To say it another way, there is nothing unwholesome about engaging in efforts to promote social harmony, but one should not mistake those efforts as being automatically aligned with development in Dhamma. Success in Dhamma would require an additional, internal effort, which may not always align with what is required for external change. Change that deals in external circumstances, not internal views. That is the key difference, and seems to be why the Buddha did not hesitate to offer such advice to lay followers whose questions were not in direct reference to Dhamma development.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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