In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

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mikenz66
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by mikenz66 »

justindesilva wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:55 am I happened to come across a sutta on politics for sangha called Attha hitha parahitha sutta where lord budda advised bikkus to better their own minds (attha ,hitha) on sila visuddhi pragna vimukti and darshana first while serving the follwers minds (,para hitha) which explains s the bikkus on how to do politics .
Do you mean this (and/or the following) sutta?
https://suttacentral.net/an5.17
“Bhikkhus, possessing five qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing for his own welfare but not for the welfare of others. What five? (1) Here, a bhikkhu is himself accomplished in virtuous behavior but does not encourage others to become accomplished in virtuous behavior; (2) he is himself accomplished in concentration but does not encourage others to become accomplished in concentration; (3) he is himself accomplished in wisdom but does not encourage others to become accomplished in wisdom; (4) he is himself accomplished in liberation but does not encourage others to become accomplished in liberation; (5) he is himself accomplished in the knowledge and vision of liberation but does not encourage others to become accomplished in the knowledge and vision of liberation. Possessing these five qualities, a bhikkhu is practicing for his own welfare but not for the welfare of others.”
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by pegembara »

Kilaya Ciriello wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 6:41 pm As long as one lives the lay life aren't there certain obligations, kammically, towards society that must be fulfilled or demerit is generated? One owes this body to the actions of one's parents and the sustenance of this body to one's community or society as a whole. The form of government in effect in one's area of residence demands certain things in response depending on one's social position, power, etc. If we refrain from fulfilling those responsibilities while still living the lay life can't we expect a kammic backlash in the future? And isn't the ripening of demerit considered a hindrance to one's progress on the path?
Ever wonder why the airlines always remind us to put on an oxygen mask ourselves first before helping others put on theirs?
A piece of truly practical advice given by the Wise One to not waste time.
“Dear Anāthapiṇḍika, whatever good kamma is created by Velāma the brāhmin, by giving that great offering, by feeding one stream-enterer, by feeding a hundred stream-enterers, by feeding one once-returner, by feeding a hundred once-returners, by feeding one non-returner, by feeding a hundred non-returners, by feeding one enlightened monk, by feeding a hundred enlightened monks, by feeding one Private Buddha, by feeding a hundred Private Buddhas, by feeding one Supreme Buddha, by feeding the community of monks headed by the Buddha, by building a residence for the community of monks, by going for refuge to the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Saṅgha, with a confident heart, by keeping the five precepts with a confident heart and by developing loving kindness meditation for the time it takes to smell the fragrance of a flower—it is more fruitful to develop the meditation on the perception of impermanence for the time it takes to snap a finger.

https://suttafriends.org/sutta/an9-20/
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

SDC wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:53 pm ...

So, I agree with you that the non-ariya may not be able to tell the difference, ...
Yes. And that's why non ariya Buddhists are in really dangerous water when they get involved in social issues: they cannot tell the difference between promoting dhamma and causing suffering. Only an ariya could actually know for sure if what they are doing is correct. Non ariyas could only quote the dhamma directly and to the letter, and follow the instructions within to the letter. Anything outside of that and they risk deepening their entrenchment in samsara. Getting involved in modern issues and new ideas, not explicitly recommended in the suttas, and assuming one is able to know that it is what the Buddha would have done, or agreed with, broadening the meaning of his words to apply to what the movement demands, etc. is fraught with peril.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SDC »

zan wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:24 am
SDC wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:53 pm ...

So, I agree with you that the non-ariya may not be able to tell the difference, ...
Yes. And that's why non ariya Buddhists are in really dangerous water when they get involved in social issues: they cannot tell the difference between promoting dhamma and causing suffering. Only an ariya could actually know for sure if what they are doing is correct. Non ariyas could only quote the dhamma directly and to the letter, and follow the instructions within to the letter. Anything outside of that and they risk deepening their entrenchment in samsara. Getting involved in modern issues and new ideas, not explicitly recommended in the suttas, and assuming one is able to know that it is what the Buddha would have done, or agreed with, broadening the meaning of his words to apply to what the movement demands, etc. is fraught with peril.
True, but what makes you think everyone who identifies as Buddhist; who identifies as practicing; is primarily concerned with becoming a sotapanna? Your warning is accurate…for those who have a sense of urgency, and who desire to be committed to stream entry. It doesn’t necessarily apply to those who don’t have any such commitment - doesn’t apply to those who have energy committed elsewhere. Intention tells the whole story and it is up to the individual to clarify where the compass pointing. Sotapatti sounds real nice, but it requires a lifestyle change. Committing significant time and energy in the direction of improving circumstances does not give craving the prominence it needs to be understood. Why? If circumstances in the world are routinely viewed as the source of suffering, i.e. removal of displeasing circumstances in the world removes suffering, there is less of a chance to see craving as the fundamental source. So, even if such a person is pure in virtue, it is likely the view is being held in place through habitual action to improve circumstances rather than on developing further restraint thus drawing craving further out into the open.

Now, to be clear, I’m not saying it is not possible to do both, but a person has to be very honest with themselves, otherwise energy will not be applied to changing what must change in order for stream entry to be available. What I mean is, a person who is making actual progress towards the gain of the right view would not seek to generate an increase in the need to make the world better. The insight of sotapatti tells a completely different story, and the themes that are leading on to further dispassion are those in line with knowledge that the world is perilous, and it is only the view can be purified.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SDC »

mikenz66 wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:02 pm It's an essential part of practice that whatever interactions we have (which invariably include some kind of "politics"), are in accord with the Dhamma. To me, it would be artificial to partition off some parts of speech, action, and livelihood and claim that the Dhamma doesn't have something to say about how we should approach them.
The Buddha gave advice about ordinary living, and it is not unreasonable to assert that everything the Buddha had to say was in line with the Dhamma, but the intention of the individual cannot be ignored. Just because my behavior aligns with what the Buddha said, does not imply development in Dhamma. It could, but that is not a guarantee. As far as I can tell, there needs to be deliberate effort to understand how harmonious behavior relates to the right view. It seems that mere action does not constitute any advancement towards that understanding. Benefits? Sure. Development in Dhamma? Possibly not.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by Kilaya Ciriello »

pegembara wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:21 am Ever wonder why the airlines always remind us to put on an oxygen mask ourselves first before helping others put on theirs?
A piece of truly practical advice given by the Wise One to not waste time.
The quote you shared from AN9.20 states that the greatest action, the greatest merit, comes from following the Buddha's Dispensation to the highest level one is capable. I hope that is a fair summary. I am only concerned in regards to this, with the lay life. I don't think I was clear about this earlier.
Lay life is often more complicated because one is not generally able, with all the demands on time and energy that the lay life creates, to strive in a fruitful and continuous way towards higher and higher accomplishments in Dhamma. Progress is often slow and intermittent for many. So if one, in that position, knowing that one is not dedicated 100% towards Dhamma practice and knowing that one has not achieved stream-entry much less even a momentary direct awareness of the truth of impermanence or even one of the Four Noble Truths (which is way above book-knowledge I think), is not mindful of the demerit caused by default by failing to fulfill responsibilities to other living beings, not to mention to one's fellow citizens, then the end result might be disastrous if death comes before one is able to reach any of the higher accomplishments.

In that case, when living the lay life, it seems safer to try and "do the right thing" in terms of "non-harming," "non-stealing," "non-lying," "generosity," and "sexual responsibility" while one continues with private and group Dhamma practice. Isn't this the purification of conduct/sila while in lay life? And such action may include political activity such as voting or supporting the right causes, etc. Otherwise one may be fooling oneself that one is more accomplished than one actually is and might find this out only when it's too late. And of course, whenever one has the energy and inspiration to renounce the world further than one already has, one should drop all social projects in order to do so but in the meantime, live in a way that does the least harm and most good to those around oneself. Do you agree that it makes sense to be conservative and make sure we have our conduct perfected while in lay life (being a "do-gooder") before tackling the higher realizations?
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by Jack19990101 »

Metta.

There is merit, there is virtue. Those two are not same, albeit there is overlap.
But for simplicity of discussion, we bias on their difference for now.

Virtue is pretty much a long list of renunciations, restraint, non-action, don't-dos.
Details can be found in many sutta, i.e. BrahmaJala Sutta as one.

Merit is a list of good deeds, with calculated return only Buddha is capable of knowing, as referred above.

Pardon the crude abbreviation -
Merit is not noble factor, virtue is noble factor.
Sila is for virtue, not of merit (directly).

Liberation is by virtue, it is neither bright nor dark kamma.
Merit is for better living, preferably by bright kamma.

It is difference in how we conduct 3 fold activities between accumulating merit or virtue, many occasions they are not compatible. On such occasions, One has to make a decision which way to go.

Politics, subscription to causes, citizen duties (so on) are activities of merit/demerit, not of virtue.

Buddha teaches both. I think when we listen to a Dhamma talks, we should differentiate if it is for better living or for N8P, or a mixture.
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by mikenz66 »

Jack19990101 wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 7:02 pm There is merit, there is virtue. Those two are not same, albeit there is overlap.
But for simplicity of discussion, we bias on their difference for now.
I may be misunderstanding how you are using the terminology. If by virtue you mean sīla, then it is just one possible contributor to merit (puñña). Merit is the encompassing term:
Giving, ethical conduct, and meditation are all grounds for making merit.
Dānamayaṁ puññakiriyavatthu, sīlamayaṁ puññakiriyavatthu, bhāvanāmayaṁ puññakiriyavatthu
https://suttacentral.net/iti60/en/sujat ... ript=latin
See the definition of puñña: https://suttacentral.net/define/pu%C3%B1%C3%B1a

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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by mikenz66 »

Kilaya Ciriello wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:57 pm In that case, when living the lay life, it seems safer to try and "do the right thing" in terms of "non-harming," "non-stealing," "non-lying," "generosity," and "sexual responsibility" while one continues with private and group Dhamma practice. Isn't this the purification of conduct/sila while in lay life? ...
Well said. What I think would be especially negative would be to use excuses like: "I'll just concentrate on Dhamma and ignore any worldly problems I come across." or "That worldly stuff is not Dhamma, so it doesn't matter how I behave in that context."

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Post by sunnat »

All this is very nice and theoretical but given it is the practice that results in progress it behoves to consider the totality of any of the innumerable real and potential pathwalker’s accumulated kamma resultants which may or may not result in further kammas and their resultants depending on conditions. Gradual training will always involve learning by doing what is and what is not wholesome. Intitially, for the averagely warped uninstructed bag of piss and shit, such and such actions like killing, stealing, lying, abusing and alcohol/drug fuelled heedlessness need to be tempered. Various kind and peaceful social and political actions may serve to awaken the individual to causes and effects. It’s a long path. For many it simply starts with doing something good. For those in training who loose their footing sometimes or often getting back on track can involve doing good or at least not doing bad. Depending on inclinations sometimes that good can be in the social political arena.
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by pegembara »

Kilaya Ciriello wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:57 pm
pegembara wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 12:21 am Ever wonder why the airlines always remind us to put on an oxygen mask ourselves first before helping others put on theirs?
A piece of truly practical advice given by the Wise One to not waste time.
The quote you shared from AN9.20 states that the greatest action, the greatest merit, comes from following the Buddha's Dispensation to the highest level one is capable. I hope that is a fair summary. I am only concerned in regards to this, with the lay life. I don't think I was clear about this earlier.
Lay life is often more complicated because one is not generally able, with all the demands on time and energy that the lay life creates, to strive in a fruitful and continuous way towards higher and higher accomplishments in Dhamma. Progress is often slow and intermittent for many. So if one, in that position, knowing that one is not dedicated 100% towards Dhamma practice and knowing that one has not achieved stream-entry much less even a momentary direct awareness of the truth of impermanence or even one of the Four Noble Truths (which is way above book-knowledge I think), is not mindful of the demerit caused by default by failing to fulfill responsibilities to other living beings, not to mention to one's fellow citizens, then the end result might be disastrous if death comes before one is able to reach any of the higher accomplishments.

In that case, when living the lay life, it seems safer to try and "do the right thing" in terms of "non-harming," "non-stealing," "non-lying," "generosity," and "sexual responsibility" while one continues with private and group Dhamma practice. Isn't this the purification of conduct/sila while in lay life? And such action may include political activity such as voting or supporting the right causes, etc. Otherwise one may be fooling oneself that one is more accomplished than one actually is and might find this out only when it's too late. And of course, whenever one has the energy and inspiration to renounce the world further than one already has, one should drop all social projects in order to do so but in the meantime, live in a way that does the least harm and most good to those around oneself. Do you agree that it makes sense to be conservative and make sure we have our conduct perfected while in lay life (being a "do-gooder") before tackling the higher realizations?
Well said.

The first task is to provide a safe space for practice. Always start with sila aka being good and you can't go wrong.
There is no point in teaching Dhamma to another who is just trying to get on with life.
Hence the order of bhikkhus was established to enable one to fully engage in practice with the support of the lay community.
But nowadays even a layperson can get quite deep into the practice through discussions and meditation retreats.

From the Dhamma viewpoint, the only safety is stream entry where there is no more possibility of falling into lower realms and getting stuck there.
"Lord, this Kapilavatthu is rich & prosperous, populous & crowded, its alleys congested. Sometimes, when I enter Kapilavatthu in the evening after visiting with the Blessed One or with the monks who inspire the mind, I meet up with a runaway elephant, a runaway horse, a runaway chariot, a runaway cart, or a runaway person. At times like that my mindfulness with regard to the Blessed One gets muddled, my mindfulness with regard to the Dhamma... the Sangha gets muddled. The thought occurs to me, 'If I were to die at this moment, what would be my destination? What would be my future course?"

"Have no fear, Mahanama! Have no fear! Your death will not be a bad one, your demise will not be bad. If one's mind has long been nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, nurtured with learning, nurtured with relinquishment, nurtured with discernment, then when the body — endowed with form, composed of the four primary elements, born from mother & father, nourished with rice & porridge, subject to inconstancy, rubbing, pressing, dissolution, & dispersion — is eaten by crows, vultures, hawks, dogs, hyenas, or all sorts of creatures, nevertheless the mind — long nurtured with conviction, nurtured with virtue, learning, relinquishment, & discernment — rises upward and separates out.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by cappuccino »

Kilaya Ciriello wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:57 pm Do you agree that it makes sense to be conservative … before tackling the higher realizations?
Higher realizations are only the beginning
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by pegembara »

cappuccino wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 3:14 am
Kilaya Ciriello wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 5:57 pm Do you agree that it makes sense to be conservative … before tackling the higher realizations?
Higher realizations are only the beginning
Beginning of the end. :thumbsup:
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech.
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by zan »

SDC wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 3:07 am
zan wrote: Mon Jan 30, 2023 1:24 am
SDC wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 3:53 pm ...

So, I agree with you that the non-ariya may not be able to tell the difference, ...
Yes. And that's why non ariya Buddhists are in really dangerous water when they get involved in social issues: they cannot tell the difference between promoting dhamma and causing suffering. Only an ariya could actually know for sure if what they are doing is correct. Non ariyas could only quote the dhamma directly and to the letter, and follow the instructions within to the letter. Anything outside of that and they risk deepening their entrenchment in samsara. Getting involved in modern issues and new ideas, not explicitly recommended in the suttas, and assuming one is able to know that it is what the Buddha would have done, or agreed with, broadening the meaning of his words to apply to what the movement demands, etc. is fraught with peril.
True, but what makes you think everyone who identifies as Buddhist; who identifies as practicing; is primarily concerned with becoming a sotapanna? Your warning is accurate…for those who have a sense of urgency, and who desire to be committed to stream entry. It doesn’t necessarily apply to those who don’t have any such commitment - doesn’t apply to those who have energy committed elsewhere. Intention tells the whole story and it is up to the individual to clarify where the compass pointing. Sotapatti sounds real nice, but it requires a lifestyle change. Committing significant time and energy in the direction of improving circumstances does not give craving the prominence it needs to be understood. Why? If circumstances in the world are routinely viewed as the source of suffering, i.e. removal of displeasing circumstances in the world removes suffering, there is less of a chance to see craving as the fundamental source. So, even if such a person is pure in virtue, it is likely the view is being held in place through habitual action to improve circumstances rather than on developing further restraint thus drawing craving further out into the open.

Now, to be clear, I’m not saying it is not possible to do both, but a person has to be very honest with themselves, otherwise energy will not be applied to changing what must change in order for stream entry to be available. What I mean is, a person who is making actual progress towards the gain of the right view would not seek to generate an increase in the need to make the world better. The insight of sotapatti tells a completely different story, and the themes that are leading on to further dispassion are those in line with knowledge that the world is perilous, and it is only the view can be purified.
I don't think everyone who identifies as Buddhist is primarily concerned with sotapatti, which is why I didn't say that. That would be a ridiculous claim for me to make, because the majority of Buddhists are Mahayana, which holds that Nirvana and Samsara are the same thing, and/or other positions that do not disallow involvement with political and social issues, nor even necessarily necessitate practice, nor following rules of any kind. Further, of course there are plenty of other Buddhists as well who simply aren't trying to follow the rules, or have reinterpreted them however is convenient, because they don't take it that seriously, for whatever reason.

As to the rest of your reply: well said! I completely agree. People who truly are dedicated to sotapatti must follow the Buddha's instructions to not get involved in social and political issues. Those who aren't, don't need to, as not following rules, meant to lead one to a goal, that one is not trying to reach, is not an issue.

As to the suttas, though, the Buddha was very emphatic that we should not waste this rare human life, and should practice in line with his rules and suggestions, so people who decide to be Buddhist and follow the suttas, but decide to not really try to follow the rules and reach sotapatti, are experiencing some serious cognitive dissonance.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.


"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: In which suttas does the Buddha recommend against getting involved in politics and social issues?

Post by SDC »

zan wrote: Tue Jan 31, 2023 7:31 pm As to the suttas, though, the Buddha was very emphatic that we should not waste this rare human life, and should practice in line with his rules and suggestions, so people who decide to be Buddhist and follow the suttas, but decide to not really try to follow the rules and reach sotapatti, are experiencing some serious cognitive dissonance.
But then they didn’t actually decide to follow the instructions found in the suttas. They decided to affiliate - to identify themselves as “Buddhist”. When people encounter what they prefer there is often an urge to be involved. To learn the norms. Get the lingo. Become devout. However, that is no different than any previous discovery of something preferable. I don’t think it is fair to fault anyone for not taking it further than that, it has to start like that, but there is no denying that for many, Buddhism is a hobby. It is something they love and appreciate. It is something they are inspired by. And that may have been all they were looking for anyway, so the urge to move further may never arise.

Now, when you spend more and more time digging and investigating, it is possible to discover more than mere inspiration. That sense of, “Oh, this is something that requires a major lifestyle change in order to actualize the broader themes described throughout the Canon.” And if that is desirable, the additional work can be taken up. And that is why I think it all comes back to the intention, which can be very layered. A person may say they have the intention to practice, but then they go out and break precepts. So, no, they didn’t have the intention to practice. What they had was the delight in the prospect of practice, buried within the broader intention of sensuality, which ultimately prevailed when they decided to willingly not keep the precepts. That is important for all of us when we consider what we actually want from our involvement with Buddhism: discerning the difference between delighting in the prospect of being a Buddhist and developing the urgency to follow the Buddha’s instructions.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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