To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
DeadBuddha
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To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Hello,

I have a question. In order to live the nirvana, is it necessary to completely stop believing and thinking (in all the senses of these words) that the teaching of the Buddha is true? In other words, in order to live nirvana, do we have to completely let go of all the Buddhist ideas that we had approved and even virulently defended on the forums ( :lol: )?
I remember a sutta where the Buddha's teaching was compared to a boat that we had to abandon in order to land on the other side of the shore. What do you think about it?

Thank you in advance.

May all beings be free from ignorance.
PeterC86
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by PeterC86 »

DeadBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:11 am Hello,

I have a question. In order to live the nirvana, is it necessary to completely stop believing and thinking (in all the senses of these words) that the teaching of the Buddha is true? In other words, in order to live nirvana, do we have to completely let go of all the Buddhist ideas that we had approved and even virulently defended on the forums ( :lol: )?
Hi DeadBuddha,

Yes, and if one has achieved this, one experiences the teaching to be true.

Warm regards,
Peter
DeadBuddha
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by DeadBuddha »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:26 am
DeadBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:11 am Hello,

I have a question. In order to live the nirvana, is it necessary to completely stop believing and thinking (in all the senses of these words) that the teaching of the Buddha is true? In other words, in order to live nirvana, do we have to completely let go of all the Buddhist ideas that we had approved and even virulently defended on the forums ( :lol: )?
Hi DeadBuddha,

Yes, and if one has achieved this, one experiences the teaching to be true.

Warm regards,
Peter
Thank you.

But if nirvana is the ultimate truth beyond all concepts, how could the conceptual teaching be true? Isn't living nirvana rather seeing that the teaching is neither true nor false?
SarathW
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by SarathW »

Say you have never been to France and like to visit the Eifel tower.
So you plan your trip with all the information (maps, language, airplane booking, etc.) and go to France and see the Eiffel tower.
Once you see the Eifel tower in reality all your maps and pictures become irrelevant.
Because what you see as a concept (pictures, plans, etc.) is nothing like reality.

Buddha's teaching is only the map, not the terrain.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Ontheway
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by Ontheway »

No.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
wenjaforever
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by wenjaforever »

In 2nd jhana, curiosity is extinguished because they have perfect telepathic powers
money is worthless toilet paper • the tongue has no bone (a person might say one thing but it cannot be further from the truth) • you cannot teach a goat math as in you cannot teach the dhamma to a dumb person
PeterC86
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by PeterC86 »

DeadBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:53 am
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:26 am
DeadBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:11 am Hello,

I have a question. In order to live the nirvana, is it necessary to completely stop believing and thinking (in all the senses of these words) that the teaching of the Buddha is true? In other words, in order to live nirvana, do we have to completely let go of all the Buddhist ideas that we had approved and even virulently defended on the forums ( :lol: )?
Hi DeadBuddha,

Yes, and if one has achieved this, one experiences the teaching to be true.

Warm regards,
Peter
Thank you.

But if nirvana is the ultimate truth beyond all concepts, how could the conceptual teaching be true? Isn't living nirvana rather seeing that the teaching is neither true nor false?
Hi DeadBuddha,

Correct, the conceptual (conventional) teaching is true because it explains that all concepts are not-self, which leads to ultimately realizing that the teaching is neither true nor false. That is leaving the raft/boat (teaching), but one needs to leave the raft first when one has reached the other shore (nirvana). So the teaching is true because it leads one to nirvana, at which point one realizes that the reaching was neither true nor false. See it as your mind being trapped in a maze, and the teaching as something that leads you out of the maze. The moment you have escaped the maze, there is no maze anymore.

Warm regards,
Peter
DeadBuddha
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by DeadBuddha »

PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 10:32 am
DeadBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:53 am
PeterC86 wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:26 am

Hi DeadBuddha,

Yes, and if one has achieved this, one experiences the teaching to be true.

Warm regards,
Peter
Thank you.

But if nirvana is the ultimate truth beyond all concepts, how could the conceptual teaching be true? Isn't living nirvana rather seeing that the teaching is neither true nor false?
Hi DeadBuddha,

Correct, the conceptual (conventional) teaching is true because it explains that all concepts are not-self, which leads to ultimately realizing that the teaching is neither true nor false. That is leaving the raft/boat (teaching), but one needs to leave the raft first when one has reached the other shore (nirvana). So the teaching is true because it leads one to nirvana, at which point one realizes that the reaching was neither true nor false. See it as your mind being trapped in a maze, and the teaching as something that leads you out of the maze. The moment you have escaped the maze, there is no maze anymore.

Warm regards,
Peter
Yes I understand, thank you very much. I really like this non-dual vision beyond language. It reminds me of Zen.
Lal
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by Lal »

There is no "living" in Nibbana in the sense of living among any of the 31 realms that the Buddha described.
- The Buddha taught that any birth in any realm ends in death and thus is associated with suffering.
- One who attains Nibbana (specifically Parinibbana or "full Nibbana") will not be reborn in any of the realms. That is the end of old age, suffering, and death. That is why Nibbana is called 'deathless."

See "Paṭhama­nib­bā­na­paṭi­saṁyutta Sutta (Ud 8.1)": https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/en/sujat ... ript=latin
DeadBuddha
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Lal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:29 pm There is no "living" in Nibbana in the sense of living among any of the 31 realms that the Buddha described.
- The Buddha taught that any birth in any realm ends in death and thus is associated with suffering.
- One who attains Nibbana (specifically Parinibbana or "full Nibbana") will not be reborn in any of the realms. That is the end of old age, suffering, and death. That is why Nibbana is called 'deathless."

See "Paṭhama­nib­bā­na­paṭi­saṁyutta Sutta (Ud 8.1)": https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/en/sujat ... ript=latin
Yes, but "living" does not necessarily mean "being born", nor does it necessarily mean "living in a world". Nirvana is lived and is life, but it is not worldly.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by Ceisiwr »

DeadBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:58 pm
Lal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:29 pm There is no "living" in Nibbana in the sense of living among any of the 31 realms that the Buddha described.
- The Buddha taught that any birth in any realm ends in death and thus is associated with suffering.
- One who attains Nibbana (specifically Parinibbana or "full Nibbana") will not be reborn in any of the realms. That is the end of old age, suffering, and death. That is why Nibbana is called 'deathless."

See "Paṭhama­nib­bā­na­paṭi­saṁyutta Sutta (Ud 8.1)": https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/en/sujat ... ript=latin
Yes, but "living" does not necessarily mean "being born", nor does it necessarily mean "living in a world". Nirvana is lived and is life, but it is not worldly.
Nibbana isn’t “life”.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
DeadBuddha
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by DeadBuddha »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:17 pm
DeadBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:58 pm
Lal wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 12:29 pm There is no "living" in Nibbana in the sense of living among any of the 31 realms that the Buddha described.
- The Buddha taught that any birth in any realm ends in death and thus is associated with suffering.
- One who attains Nibbana (specifically Parinibbana or "full Nibbana") will not be reborn in any of the realms. That is the end of old age, suffering, and death. That is why Nibbana is called 'deathless."

See "Paṭhama­nib­bā­na­paṭi­saṁyutta Sutta (Ud 8.1)": https://suttacentral.net/ud8.1/en/sujat ... ript=latin
Yes, but "living" does not necessarily mean "being born", nor does it necessarily mean "living in a world". Nirvana is lived and is life, but it is not worldly.
Nibbana isn’t “life”.
What do you mean?
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mjaviem
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by mjaviem »

DeadBuddha wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:36 pm What do you mean?
He understands Nibbana as something that cannot occur in the present without having a corpse being part of the process. He might also be referring to the fact that Nibbana isn't taught as "life" in the suttas.
Namo Tassa Bhagavato Arahato Sammā Sambuddhassa
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cappuccino
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by cappuccino »

Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Jan 26, 2023 1:17 pm Nibbana isn’t “life”.
Not life as you know it
TRobinson465
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Re: To live the nirvana, do we have to abandon the teaching of the Buddha?

Post by TRobinson465 »

You need the Buddhas teachings to reach nirvana yes, but clinging to the teachings (or anything for that matter) in a greedy or egoist way will itself hinder you. Clinging even to good things will hinder you, such as clinging to love or happiness. So yes, sorta i would say.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"The Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta
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