A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

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justindesilva
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by justindesilva »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:58 am [
Are you saying slaves are not 'human'?Human can be a slave, poor,criminal etc. But you can come out of that situation
Mumfie wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:32 am ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.’

when made regularly, leads to a sense of responsibility, to moral restraint and to fortitude and equanimity.
Sounds like it leads to converting to Christianity to be free from your past kamma/sins.You will be free from your past karma only when you become an Arahant. It seems to be you are mixing up the contemplation from effort
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There are psalms from bible ,eg :psalm 103 ; 10-12 ,He does not treat us as our we deserve or repay us according to our inquisities for as high as the skies are above our earth so great is his love for those who fear him as far as the east is far ftom the west, so far has he removed or transgressed from us
This is a psalm close in means to dsmmapada verse 127 which explain that one cannot hide from evil deeds as a resullt of karma by hiding in skies or a cave etc
I wish to explain that a true christian can find the truth by reading the bible and scriptures properly without criticising buddhism or a buddhist need not find falt with a chrustian for that matter
Ontheway
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Ontheway »

OP can refer to Kathavathu (recited during Third Arahant Council led by Arahant Moggaliputta Tissa Thera). There described all the debate points between all heretical earlier schools of Buddhism (Paravada) and the authentic original Sangha (Sakavada) that carried the pure teachings of the Lord Buddha: Vibhajjavada aka Theravada of modern age. You can find the pdf online. There is a diagram of how these schools appeared too.

It was in this Council, that Pali scriptures were recited and finally classified into Tipitaka form. After this Council, with the help of King Asoka, Buddhadhamma spreading all over different parts of the world.
Hiriottappasampannā,
sukkadhammasamāhitā;
Santo sappurisā loke,
devadhammāti vuccare.

https://suttacentral.net/ja6/en/chalmer ... ight=false
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Mumfie
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Mumfie »

Scabrella wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:57 am Sounds like it leads to converting to Christianity to be free from your past kamma/sins.
"Past kamma" can't be equated with "sins", for the term also includes meritorious kamma.

As I've been taught it, in the practice of the Five Topics for Frequent Recollection (abhiṇhapaccavekkhaṇa: ageing, sickness, death, inevitable separation and kamma) the recollection of kamma doesn't entail bringing to mind any particular actions that we've performed. (Most of our unripened kammas were performed in former lives and we don't even have any recollection of them). Rather, we bring to mind the general fact of our subjection to kamma: that in the present we are the heirs of what we did in the past and in the future we shall be the heirs of the actions we perform now.

Still, if you're apprehensive that the practice of the abhiṇhapaccavekkhaṇas might result in you yourself falling into despair and then converting to Christianity, perhaps it would be prudent for you to avoid them or to confine yourself to just the first four.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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Mumfie
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Mumfie »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:01 am The same way a monk with the state of association with desire and lust can be a householder too?
In Vinaya narratives about self-indulgent monks and nuns, the phrase “Just like householders!” is the stock reproach that's levelled against them, sometimes by their fellow monastics but most often by the householders themselves.
At one time when the Buddha was staying at Sāvatthī in Anāthapiṇḍika’s Monastery, the nuns from the group of six were bathing with scents and colors. People complained and criticized them, “How can nuns bathe with scents and colors? They are just like householders who indulge in pleasures of the senses!”
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
Scabrella
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Scabrella »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:58 am You will be free from your past karma only when you become an Arahant. It seems to be you are mixing up the contemplation from effort
Like other posts, this answer is not convincing at all. You said someone who has practiced and is what is called stream-enterer, once-returner & nonreturner is still a slave to past kamma. Using the color grey for your answer (which similar to the post is illegible) would be better than light blue (which remains legible).
SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 7:58 am You will be free from your past karma only when you become an Arahant. It seems to be you are mixing up the contemplation from effort
Mumfie wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:36 pm Rather, we bring to mind the general fact of our subjection to kamma: that in the present we are the heirs of what we did in the past and in the future we shall be the heirs of the actions we perform now.
You said we are heirs to what we did in the past. What can we do now (in the present) to stop being heirs to past kamma & avoid going to hell in the future?
Last edited by Scabrella on Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joe.c
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Joe.c »

Scabrella wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:39 am You said we are heirs to what we did in the past. What can we now (in the present) stop being heirs to past kamma & avoid going to hell in the future?
Nice counter argument.

Nobody can change the past. Once one has entered the stream, the past kamma can just be experienced by one here and now by endure with developed body (sila) and mind (samadhi) and wisdom.

The past kamma is becoming miniscule (insignificant) when one has entered the stream.

No need to wait to an arahant, even a stream enterer can endure the past kamma easily.

Extreme example Ven Angulimala. A murderer, but since enter the stream, never harm any beings.

Note: no need to die to know your perfected precepts.
MN 86 wrote:Ever since I was born in the noble birth, sister, I don’t recall having intentionally taken the life of a living creature. By this truth, may both you and your baby be safe.”
...
Then Venerable Aṅgulimāla robed up in the morning and, taking his bowl and robe, entered Sāvatthī for alms. Now at that time someone threw a stone that hit Aṅgulimāla, someone else threw a stick, and someone else threw gravel. Then Aṅgulimāla—with cracked head, bleeding, his bowl broken, and his outer robe torn—went to the Buddha.

The Buddha saw him coming off in the distance, and said to him, “Endure it, brahmin! Endure it, brahmin! You’re experiencing in this life the result of deeds that might have caused you to be tormented in hell for many years, many hundreds or thousands of years
This is the reason one can escape lower realm in this life. No need to wait, once your wisdom is mature. You can be slowly freed from past kamma.
Last edited by Joe.c on Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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santa100
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by santa100 »

Scabrella wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:39 am You said someone who has practiced and is what is called stream-enterer, once-returner & nonreturner is still a slave to past kamma...
"a slave to past kamma" is probably the wrong word to use. However, it is true that even Arahants still have to settle all their kammic debts in their last lifetime before they can pass away and no longer return for any more round of rebirths. The famous case is that of Ven. MahaMoggallana, who already attained Arahantship but still got brutally beaten and subsequently killed for his past unwholesome kamma.
You said we are heirs to what we did in the past. What can we now (in the present) stop being heirs to past kamma & avoid going to hell in the future?
If you've committed one of the Five Heinous Crimes, then no matter how hard you've repented and cultivated the Dhamma, you're still bound for hell. But for any other crimes, with a sincere heart to repent and practice, you can help transform/attenuate your existing unwholesome kamma. Refer to the story of Ven. Angulimala and the Salt Crystal Sutta for more details.
Scabrella
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Scabrella »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:31 am No need to wait to an arahant, even a stream enterer can endure the past kamma easily.
How do I know I am a stream-enterer?
santa100 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 am no matter how hard you've repented and cultivated the Dhamma, you're still bound for hell.
Jesus sounds better than Dhamma.
santa100 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 am Refer to the story of Ven. Angulimala and the Salt Crystal Sutta for more details.
If you must post these links rather than give a clear answer, you probably don't understand what is written in the links.
santa100 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 amThe famous case is that of Ven. MahaMoggallana, who already attained Arahantship but still got brutally beaten and subsequently killed for his past unwholesome kamma.
This sounds like the kamma of the beaters/killers. You sound confused. Your post sounds like believing a child is raped or abused due to the child's past kamma rather than due to the madness of the rapist/abuser. Please let Joe.C answer my question. Go back to your librarian work elsewhere. Thanks
Last edited by Scabrella on Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:43 am, edited 5 times in total.
Joe.c
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Joe.c »

robertk wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:51 am You could also add this:
The Expositor p.37
He who prohibits (the teaching of) Abhidhamma gives a blow to the Wheel of the Conqueror, denies omniscience, subverts the Teacher’s knowledge full of confidence, deceives the audience, obstructs the path of the Ariyas, manifests himself as advocating one’ of the eighteen causes of dissension in the Order, is capable of doing acts for which the doer is liable to be ex- communicated, or admonished,’ Or scorned (by the Order), and should be dismissed after the particular act of excommunication, admonition, or scorn, and reduced to living on scraps of food.
I wonder who wrote/said this, definitely not Buddha. Have you checked where this being is going? Lower realm maybe.

Even Buddha never have any strict rule about this.

The teaching is free and any wise person can understood. No blindly belief ever.

Truly someone who hasn't understood write and propagate this. Becareful.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
Joe.c
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Joe.c »

Scabrella wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:36 am
How do I know I am a stream-enterer?
If you are still asking someone, then you are definitely NOT. 😁

A stream enterer has 4 factor of stream enterer:
SN 55.5 wrote:associating with good people, listening to the true teaching, focus attention to the source, and practicing in line with the teaching
For stream enterer fruit:
SN 55 wrote:Unshakeable confidence with Buddha, Dhamma and ariya sangha. Have perfected precepts that lead to samadhi.
you wrote: Jesus sounds better than Dhamma.
Haha.. so true. People got scare off before even listen to true dhamma.

Most people will think, at least jesus can take all his/her sin for them. But this is also illogical thinking.😅 Another extreme.

People think Buddha teaching is about hell only or SUFFERING only. In fact his teaching is abandon the hell and suffering, so heaven/pleasure can be experienced here and now in this human life.

One can abandon lower realm acts (bad actions) after cultivate good acts similar to higher being acts/behaviors. Then developed the mind and free from all sufferings and experience Bliss
Last edited by Joe.c on Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
santa100
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by santa100 »

Scabrella wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:36 am
santa100 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 am no matter how hard you've repented and cultivated the Dhamma, you're still bound for hell.
#1. Jesus sounds better than Dhamma.
santa100 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 am Refer to the story of Ven. Angulimala and the Salt Crystal Sutta for more details.
#2. If you must post these links rather than give a clear answer, you probably don't understand what is written in the links.
santa100 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 amThe famous case is that of Ven. MahaMoggallana, who already attained Arahantship but still got brutally beaten and subsequently killed for his past unwholesome kamma.
#3. This sounds like the kamma of the beaters/killers. You sound confused. Your post sounds like believing a child is raped or abused due to the child's past kamma rather than due to the madness of the rapist/abuser. Please let Joe.C answer my question. Go back to your librarian work elsewhere. Thanks
#1. This is DW, not a Christian forum. You're free to post elsewhere if you find "Jesus sounds better than Dhamma".
#2. It's never my intention to spoon-feed you. I've already provided the needed info. Up to you to read them or not.
#3. When's the last time you had a head MRI? Cuz from what you just said, looks like you'd better get one as soon as possible. Go back to your mental asylum. Thanks.
SarathW
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by SarathW »

Scabrella wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:36 am
Joe.c wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:31 am No need to wait to an arahant, even a stream enterer can endure the past kamma easily.
How do I know I am a stream-enterer?You have to follow the path with faith. In your case, it seems that you have not taken even the three refuges
santa100 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 am no matter how hard you've repented and cultivated the Dhamma, you're still bound for hell.
Jesus sounds better than Dhamma.Jesus also preached a type of Dhamma
santa100 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 am Refer to the story of Ven. Angulimala and the Salt Crystal Sutta for more details.
If you must post these links rather than give a clear answer, you probably don't understand what is written in the links.Somtimes we give links as we do not have enough time to explain every thing. You have to exert some effort too
santa100 wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 1:34 amThe famous case is that of Ven. MahaMoggallana, who already attained Arahantship but still got brutally beaten and subsequently killed for his past unwholesome kamma.
This sounds like the kamma of the beaters/killers. You sound confused. Your post sounds like believing a child is raped or abused due to the child's past kamma rather than due to the madness of the rapist/abuser. Please let Joe.C answer my question. Go back to your librarian work elsewhere. ThanksKamma is only one of the five Niyamas. You hold the view of Nithantha (the naked ascetics) who believes every thing is happen due to past Kamma
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Joe.c
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Joe.c »

SarathW wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:13 am You have to follow the path with faith. In your case, it seems that you have not taken even the three refuges
No blind faith in Buddha teaching. No need to take refuge before even single understanding of true dhamma.

Only when you see the benefit of true dhamma in your life, then one takes refuge is not too late.

Ex:
Buddha said: stop killing. Details see SN 55.7.

Why?

Because i don't want to get kill by other beings and i want to live happily. Other beings also don't want to get kill and they want to live happily. So for benefit of myself and other beings, i will stop killing.

Keep reflecting of this, i will stop killing. I will promote no killing to others as well. I will say only good thing about not killing. The bodily acts will be purified. One will live blamelessly now.

Note: this is just one example. Similarly with other precepts. See SN 55.7 and MN 61.

At that time the refuge is automatic. The confidence will grow only.
May you be relax, happy, comfortable and free of dukkhas from hearing true dhamma.
May you gain unshakable confidence in Buddha, Dhamma and (Ariya) Sangha.
Learn about Buddha/Dhamma Characters.
justindesilva
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by justindesilva »

Joe.c wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:32 am
SarathW wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 2:13 am You have to follow the path with faith. In your case, it seems that you have not taken even the three refuges
No blind faith in Buddha teaching. No need to take refuge before even single understanding of true dhamma.

Only when you see the benefit of true dhamma in your life, then one takes refuge is not too late.

Ex:
Buddha said: stop killing. Details see SN 55.7.

Why?

Because i don't want to get kill by other beings and i want to live happily. Other beings also don't want to get kill and they want to live happily. So for benefit of myself and other beings, i will stop killing.

Keep reflecting of this, i will stop killing. I will promote no killing. I will say only good thing about not killing. The bodily acts will be purified. One will live blamelessly now.

Note: this is just one example. Similarly with other precepts. See SN 55.7 and MN 61.

At that time the refuge is automatic. The confidence will grow only.
Faith in buddhism is explaoned as 1 : amulika ssddha and 2:akarawathi saddha
Amulika saddha is faith blind, rootless or baseless and akarawathi saddha is faith based on experience , knowledge and honest feeling on budda damma .
Amulika saddha is the faith not accepted by damma followers .
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Mumfie
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Mumfie »

Scabrella wrote: Sun Jan 29, 2023 12:39 amYou said we are heirs to what we did in the past. What can we do now (in the present) to stop being heirs to past kamma & avoid going to hell in the future?
From the Samādhisutta:
“An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the origin of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the cessation of suffering.’ An exertion should be made to understand: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’”
(SN56.1)
If these exertions should succeed, stream-entry will be attained in the present life, eliminating the possibility of rebirth in hell or the other lower realms.

The said exertions, however, are very difficult:
The Blessed One said: “What do you think, Ānanda, which is more difficult and challenging: to shoot arrows from a distance through a very small keyhole, head through butt, without missing, or to pierce with the arrowhead the tip of a hair split into seven strands?”

“It is more difficult and challenging, venerable sir, to pierce with the arrowhead the tip of a hair split into seven strands.”

“But, Ānanda, they pierce something even more difficult to pierce who pierce as it really is: ‘This is suffering’ …; who pierce as it really is: ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’
(SN56.45)
Being very difficult, there is a good chance that one might fail in the present life. Indeed there are certain persons for whom failure is unavoidable. For example, those hindered by the six impediments (ā­vara­ṇa) described in AN6.86:
“Bhikkhus, possessing six qualities, even while listening to the good Dhamma one is incapable of entering upon the fixed course consisting in rightness in wholesome qualities.What six? One is obstructed by kamma; one is obstructed by defilement; one is obstructed by the result of kamma; one is without faith; one is without desire; and one is unwise.”
That being so, if one is neither yet a stream-entrant nor confident of becoming one in the present life, then as well as the exertions to understand the four truths, it would also be prudent to do what's necessary to reduce the chance of rebirth in the lower realms and to increase the chance of rebirth as a human in a time and place where the Dhamma is still available. It's with such an aim that the mundane or āsava-associated eightfold path is to be practised.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
John Bunyan, Pilgrim’s Progress II)
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