A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

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Mumfie
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A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Mumfie »

(I'm replying to this post in a new thread, as its subject has, at best, only a rather tenuous connection with beekeeping).
Mumfie wrote:Heresiology isn't really my strong suit, but I don't believe there would be any heresy in it, provided you didn't insist that such a supererogatory observance is obligatory for a precept-keeping Buddhist, in which case it would be the heresy of treating dāna as sīla. As heresies go, this would be a relatively trifling one and we probably wouldn't burn you at the stake for it.
Radix wrote: Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:00 pmSo where's the dividing line? At what point does a heresy become a burning-at-stake level of offense?
If I ever decide to give up the day job and go into the heresiology trade, I shall probably use a scheme of my own devising, wherein each departure from Theravada Buddhist orthodoxy will be placed in one of five classes, A, B, C, D and X, according to whether it's a dire heresy, a momentous heresy, a trivial heresy, a pseudo-heresy or a heresy whose gravity I'm quite unable to determine.

Here are the five classes with some examples:

Class A – the direst of all, undermining the basis of a moral life and conducive to rebirth in hell.

1. The heresy of Ariṭṭha Gaddhabādhipubba
“Those things that have been declared by the Blessed One to be stumbling blocks are not in fact stumbling blocks for anyone who practises them.”
(MN22)
I place this one at the very top of the list, for in the Vinaya it's the only kind of wrong view that the Buddha made actionable. A bhikkhu professing it must be remonstrated with and ostracised if he doesn't retract it after three warnings. A sāmanera professing it must be remonstrated with and expelled from the community if he doesn't immediately retract it. (Happily neither need to be burned at the stake).

2. The wrong views that are akusala kammapathas, i.e., the mere holding of them creates unwholesome mental kamma of a kind weighty enough to ripen as rebirth in the lower realms.

These can be counted as one:

* Denial of ownership of kamma.

Or as three:

* Haphazardism (ahetukavāda).
* Kammic ineffectualism (akiriyavāda)
* Moral nihilism (natthikavāda).

Or as ten:
“There is nothing given, nothing sacrificed, nothing offered; there is no fruit or result of good and bad actions; there is no this world, no other world; there is no mother, no father; there are no beings spontaneously reborn; there are in the world no ascetics and brahmins of right conduct and right practice who, having realized this world and the other world for themselves by direct knowledge, make them known to others.”
3. Views amounting to a slander of the Buddha's person, such as those described in MN12.

* Denial of the Buddha's attainment of dhammas exceeding the merely human (uttarimanussadhammā)
“The Tathāgata has these ten Tathāgata’s powers, possessing which he claims the herd-leader’s place, roars his lion’s roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahmā.
 
“Sāriputta, when I know and see thus, should anyone say of me: ‘The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma merely hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him’—unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as surely as if he had been carried off and put there he will wind up in hell.
* Denial of the Buddha's four kinds of intrepidity
(i) “Though the Blessed One claims to be fully enlightened, there are such and such things that he is not enlightened about.”

(ii) “Though the Blessed One claims to have destroyed all the āsavas, there are such and such āsavas that he has not yet destroyed.”

(iii) Same as Ariṭṭha's view.

(iv) “When the Blessed One teaches the Dhamma to someone, it does not lead him when he practises it to the complete destruction of suffering.”
Class B – momentous heresies, meaning those which are compatible with, or even supportive of, the moral life, but an insuperable impediment to Nibbāna.

Eternalism (sassatavāda), personalism (puggalavāda), etc. All of the Brahmajālasutta's sixty-two diṭṭhigatas that don't belong in Class A.

Class C – trivial heresies, meaning those which though erroneous, concern matters so inconsequential that holding them is unlikely to be to anyone's palpable detriment.

* That Erāvaṇa, the elephant ridden by Indra, is a normal animal realm elephant (Elephas maximus indicus) and not a deva of elephantine form.

* That the Buddha's faeces had a sweet fragrance.

* That the post-mortem destinations (gatis) number six, not five.

Class D – pseudo-heresies, meaning those where the difference between the Theravadin and the heretic is not really a difference in view, but only in phrasing.

One example is the Gihi’s­sa­ arahā’ti­ (“A householder may become an arahant”) debate in the Kathāvatthu.

The Theravādin states that you can't become an arahant unless you've abandoned “the fetter of householdership” (gihisaṃyojana), citing MN71:
The wanderer Vacchagotta asked the Blessed One: “Master Gotama, is there any householder who, without abandoning the fetter of householdership, on the dissolution of the body has made an end of suffering?”

“Vaccha, there is no householder who, without abandoning the fetter of householdership, on the dissolution of the body has made an end of suffering.”
His opponent of the Uttarapāthaka school replies that you can, citing the example of Yasa, who attained arahantship as a layman and only then went forth.

Superficially it looks as if there's a disagreement of substance between the Theravādin and the Uttarapāthaka, but really there isn't; it's simply that the two parties are using the term gihisaṃyojana in different ways. The Theravādin uses it to refer to the householderish mental fetters that are opposed to renunciation, while the Uttarapāthaka uses it to refer to the physical fact of being still a householder. In effect, the two parties are talking at cross purposes, each trying to refute a view that the other doesn't hold. And so in this matter, though the Uttarapāthaka can be faulted for not using the term gihisaṃyojana correctly (i.e., in its original sutta sense), he can't be said to have fallen into any heresy.

Class X – heresies that may belong in Class B (momentous) or Class C (trivial), but of whose correct placement I'm presently undecided.

For me, sad to say, this is actually the largest class of all. With perhaps a third of the Kathāvatthu debates and three quarters of the topics people argue about on Buddhist forums, I simply have no idea as to whether they are arguments about things that matter. For this reason I expect I shan't be giving up the day job any time soon.
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Coëmgenu »

Mumfie wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:24 amClass C – trivial heresies [...]

* That Erāvaṇa, the elephant ridden by Indra, is a normal animal realm elephant (Elephas maximus indicus) and not a deva of elephantine form.

[...]

* That the post-mortem destinations (gatis) number six, not five.
Fun trivia: both of these are Mahāsāṃghika doctrines. They include the asuras as a sixth destiny. They believe that more-or-less "normal" animals can populate the heavens. They also taught, along with the Sarvāstivādins (of all sects!) that nāgas are "normal" snakes, not a special class of deity, as they are in Theravāda. They taught that the āryamārga was fivefold for a bhikṣu but fourfold for the Bodhisattva, that the fourfold path of the Bodhisattvas involves the mastery of ten perfections and the passing-through of ten Bodhisattva bhūmis, that the citta can take itself as an object, that the devas and other non-human beings can be part of the Saṃgha, that the Buddhas are omniscient and can survey the entire cosmos in a single kṣaṇa, that there can be many Buddhas present simultaneously in a lokadhātu, that the Buddhas can be found in all ten directions, that the realization of stream-entry is accompanied by a mental or vocal utterance of "This is suffering," that the realization of Arhatva is accompanied by the mental or vocal utterance of "The cessation of existence is Nirvāṇa," and that the arūpyasamāpattis, the four truths, pratītyasamutpāda itself, the ākāśa, and the svabhāvas of the dharmas are unconditioned. Obviously this isn't an exhaustive list. They also taught "simultaneous cognition," a sort of "two-to-six-way parallel processing" done with sixfold vijñāna, and that sounds can be heard, sights seen, and touchables felt in the four dhyānas. Like the Theravādins, they taught subitism, here meaning "insight into the four truths in a single kṣaṇa," and that the heart-base of the citta was spread throughout the entire physical body. Some of them had a gandharva-theory of the Antarābhava, while others denied the Antarābhava. Some had a bīja-theory of karma, while others used an iṇa-theory of karma. The bīja-theory involves mental contamination afflicting the manas until vipāka. The iṇa-theory involves karmas lingering unseen, like a "debt" (iṇa), until vipāka. The bīja-theory presumes that karmavipāka principally manifests as mental defilement, while the iṇa-theory leaves open the possibility of karmavipāka manifesting as happenings in the external world.

Lastly and most controversially, they taught that Arhats can be deceived, can hold incorrect views regarding the cosmos, and can backslide (becoming Stream-Entrants again). They taught that advanced Bodhisattvas choose their subsequent births and are mindful and aware while in the womb, and that the Buddhas attain Bodhi in the akaniṣṭha heaven as Bodhisattvas before they teach in the Tuṣita.

Some of these feature as common heresies today, some are more obscure.
Last edited by Coëmgenu on Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:15 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Pulsar »

Mumfie wrote
One example is the Gihi’s­sa­ arahā’ti­ (“A householder may become an arahant”) debate in the Kathāvatthu.

The Theravādin states that you can't become an arahant unless you've abandoned “the fetter of householdership” (gihisaṃyojana), citing MN71:
The wanderer Vacchagotta asked the Blessed One: “Master Gotama, is there any householder who, without abandoning the fetter of householdership, on the dissolution of the body has made an end of suffering?”

“Vaccha, there is no householder who, without abandoning the fetter of householdership, on the dissolution of the body has made an end of suffering.”
His opponent of the Uttarapāthaka school replies that you can, citing the example of Yasa, who attained arahantship as a layman and only then went forth.

Superficially it looks as if there's a disagreement of substance between the Theravādin and the Uttarapāthaka, but really there isn't; it's simply that the two parties are using the term gihisaṃyojana in different ways. The Theravādin uses it to refer to the householderish mental fetters that are opposed to renunciation, while the Uttarapāthaka uses it to refer to the physical fact of being still a householder. In effect, the two parties are talking at cross purposes, each trying to refute a view that the other doesn't hold. And so in this matter, though the Uttarapāthaka can be faulted for not using the term gihisaṃyojana correctly (i.e., in its original sutta sense), he can't be said to have fallen into any heresy.
What is the fetter of householdership? The term Householder is presented in yet another way in the Pali canon. Was Kathavatthu not aware of that?
Regards :candle:
PS Thanks for the work you put into this post. It is impressive.
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by dharmacorps »

There has got to be a better word for what is being described as heresy. Heresy is the domain of judeo-christian concepts and sounds fairly ridiculous in a Buddhist context-- to me, at least. Also, what is the point of such a system? An inquisition?
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by SarathW »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:13 pm Mumfie wrote
One example is the Gihi’s­sa­ arahā’ti­ (“A householder may become an arahant”) debate in the Kathāvatthu.

The Theravādin states that you can't become an arahant unless you've abandoned “the fetter of householdership” (gihisaṃyojana), citing MN71:
The wanderer Vacchagotta asked the Blessed One: “Master Gotama, is there any householder who, without abandoning the fetter of householdership, on the dissolution of the body has made an end of suffering?”

“Vaccha, there is no householder who, without abandoning the fetter of householdership, on the dissolution of the body has made an end of suffering.”
His opponent of the Uttarapāthaka school replies that you can, citing the example of Yasa, who attained arahantship as a layman and only then went forth.

Superficially it looks as if there's a disagreement of substance between the Theravādin and the Uttarapāthaka, but really there isn't; it's simply that the two parties are using the term gihisaṃyojana in different ways. The Theravādin uses it to refer to the householderish mental fetters that are opposed to renunciation, while the Uttarapāthaka uses it to refer to the physical fact of being still a householder. In effect, the two parties are talking at cross purposes, each trying to refute a view that the other doesn't hold. And so in this matter, though the Uttarapāthaka can be faulted for not using the term gihisaṃyojana correctly (i.e., in its original sutta sense), he can't be said to have fallen into any heresy.
What is the fetter of householdership? The term Householder is presented in yet another way in the Pali canon. Was Kathavatthu not aware of that?
Regards :candle:
PS Thanks for the work you put into this post. It is impressive.
Thank you for you too.
When I saw the thread for the first time I thought it is above my paycheck. Your post help me to re-read the OP and now I understood it a little bit better.
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Mumfie »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:13 pm What is the fetter of householdership?
Desire and lust (chandarāga).

The Kathāvatthu commentary states:
The sakavādin's (= Theravādin's) question: “Can a householder be an arahant?” means, “Can a householder bound with a householder’s fetters be an arahant?”

The paravādin then replies affirmatively, misunderstanding the question’s meaning and taking it as concerned only with the outward marks of householdership (gihibyañjanamattam’eva).

However, it is by a householder’s fetters that one is called “a householder” (gihi nāma gihisaṃyojanena hoti), not merely the outward marks of a householder (na byañjanamattena). As the Blessed One has said:

alaṅkato cepi samaṃ careyya,
santo danto niyato brahmacārī;
sabbesu bhūtesu nidhāya daṇḍaṃ,
so brāhmaṇo so samaṇo sa bhikkhū’ti.


“If although adorned (with fine clothes) he practices equanimity, is calm, controlled, restrained, living the holy life, having laid aside violence with regard to all living creatures, he is a brahman, an ascetic, a bhikkhu.”
(Dhammapada 142, K.R. Norman)
Then the Kathāvatthu-mūlaṭīkā supplies the gloss:
“The state of association with a householder’s fetters” (gihisaṃyojanasampayuttatā) means the state of association with desire and lust (gihichandarāga-sampayuttatā), not merely the outward marks (na byañjanamattena).
Pulsar wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:13 pmThe term Householder is presented in yet another way in the Pali canon. Was Kathavatthu not aware of that?
I'm sure Moggalliputtatissa was well apprised of the range of meanings and applications of gahaṭṭha, agārika, agāriya, gihi and gahapati.

Like his two teachers, he was a tipiṭakadhara and in the Kathāvatthu supplies a huge number of canonical citations in defence of the Theravāda positions, taken from all across the five nikāyas. He was also elected to preside over the Tipiṭaka recital at the Third Council, which isn’t the sort of role that would usually be assigned to a monk of scant learning.
Pulsar wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 8:13 pmThanks for the work you put into this post. It is impressive.
My pleasure.
:smile:
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by SarathW »

However, it is by a householder’s fetters that one is called “a householder” (gihi nāma gihisaṃyojanena hoti), not merely the outward marks of a householder (na byañjanamattena). As the Blessed One has said:
Very interesting point.
The same way a monk with the state of association with desire and lust can be a householder too?
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Scabrella »

Mumfie wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:24 am * Denial of ownership of kamma.
Slaves used to be "owned" by their masters, therefore had no freedom. Does "owning" kamma result in slavery?
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by SarathW »

Scabrella wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:08 am
Mumfie wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:24 am * Denial of ownership of kamma.
Slaves used to be "owned" by their masters, therefore had no freedom. Does "owning" kamma result in slavery?
I would say that you become a slave due to your Kamma but it does not stop you from coming out of slavery.
It is no different to become a human and attain Nibbana.
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Mumfie »

Scabrella wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:08 am
Mumfie wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 5:24 am * Denial of ownership of kamma.
Slaves used to be "owned" by their masters, therefore had no freedom. Does "owning" kamma result in slavery?
The recollection:

‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.’

when made regularly, leads to a sense of responsibility, to moral restraint and to fortitude and equanimity.
“Hobgoblin, nor foul fiend,
Shall daunt his spirit;”
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Mumfie »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:18 pm There has got to be a better word for what is being described as heresy.
In the thread title I placed “heresy” in scare quotes, for I'm aware that some Buddhists have a problem with it. (Though by no means all: English-speaking Nichirenists, for example, seem to absolutely adore the word!).

Yet notwithstanding the scare quotes, I stand by the word.

When classified according to their type, rather than according to their gravity, the items in the OP list are threefold:

1. Deviant views, whether of Buddhists or non-Buddhists (micchādiṭṭhi).

2. Heterodox interpretations advanced by fellow Buddhists (paravāda).

3. Blasphemies (ariyūpavāda).

I use ‘heresy’ because, firstly, I know of no better word that would cover all three types, and secondly, because to date all of the objections to ‘heresy’ that I've heard from English-speaking Buddhists have struck me as shallow and trivial. Like yours, for example:
dharmacorps wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:18 pmHeresy is the domain of judeo-christian concepts and sounds fairly ridiculous in a Buddhist context-- to me, at least.
But it doesn't sound ridiculous to me (nor to the Nichirenists, apparently). And so this objection merely points to a difference in our respective taste and sensibility.

As for its provenance in the Abrahamic faiths, this wouldn't in itself constitute much of an objection. Translators of Buddhist texts have already borrowed a few dozen terms from the Christians; many of these are much less justified and felicitous renderings of the Buddhist terms they translate than is “heresy”, and yet they have come to acquire an unassailable currency among English-speaking Buddhists.

A good example is the use of “ordination” for pabbajjā and upasampadā. I once met a crusty old Roman Catholic prison chaplain who opined that it was ridiculous for a non-theistic religion to use such a term and then gave me a cogent explanation of why it was so. I have yet to hear a single Buddhist baulk at the use of this term.
dharmacorps wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:18 pmAlso, what is the point of such a system? An inquisition?
It was composed for the edification of Radix, who wished to know what the dividing line between trifling and non-trifling heresies might be. The OP is my tentative response to this query.
Last edited by Mumfie on Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by robertk »

You could also add this:
The Expositor p.37
He who prohibits (the teaching of) Abhidhamma gives a blow to the Wheel of the Conqueror, denies omniscience, subverts the Teacher’s knowledge full of confidence, deceives the audience, obstructs the path of the Ariyas, manifests himself as advocating one’ of the eighteen causes of dissension in the Order, is capable of doing acts for which the doer is liable to be ex- communicated, or admonished,’ Or scorned (by the Order), and should be dismissed after the particular act of excommunication, admonition, or scorn, and reduced to living on scraps of food.
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Scabrella »

SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:32 am It is no different to become a human and attain Nibbana.
Are you saying slaves are not 'human'?
Mumfie wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:32 am ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.’

when made regularly, leads to a sense of responsibility, to moral restraint and to fortitude and equanimity.
Sounds like it leads to converting to Christianity to be free from your past kamma/sins.
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by Sam Vara »

Scabrella wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:57 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:32 am It is no different to become a human and attain Nibbana.
Are you saying slaves are not 'human'?
Mumfie wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:32 am ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.’

when made regularly, leads to a sense of responsibility, to moral restraint and to fortitude and equanimity.
Sounds like it leads to converting to Christianity to be free from your past kamma/sins.
Why should it do that? Both the formula and the recommendation that it be frequently reflected upon predate Christianity, and don't seem to have led to it in practice.
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Re: A tentative Theravada taxonomy of "heresy"

Post by SarathW »

Scabrella wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 6:57 am
SarathW wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 4:32 am It is no different to become a human and attain Nibbana.
Are you saying slaves are not 'human'?Human can be a slave, poor,criminal etc. But you can come out of that situation
Mumfie wrote: Sat Jan 28, 2023 5:32 am ‘I am the owner of my kamma, the heir of my kamma; I have kamma as my origin, kamma as my relative, kamma as my resort; I will be the heir of whatever kamma, good or bad, that I do.’

when made regularly, leads to a sense of responsibility, to moral restraint and to fortitude and equanimity.
Sounds like it leads to converting to Christianity to be free from your past kamma/sins.You will be free from your past karma only when you become an Arahant. It seems to be you are mixing up the contemplation from effort
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