Why must an arahant join the monkhood or die?

[thepea]

Greetings,

We have all heard this said, I think. Somehow becoming a monk prevents an arahat from soon dying. How does that happen?

Daniel Ingram is an arahant, and he is a layman with a job.
More religious mumbo jumbo to give importance to a religious tradition.

Lol. Daniel Ingram redefined arahant to suit himself. He's no arahant. Or, is it [current year] and we can identify however we want now, thepea?

Metta,
Paul.

What did he redefine?
What do you base your judgement on?

[thepea]

Daniel Ingram is an arahant,

No he’s not

So much judgement!!!
Who are you to tell him he’s not?
There are pregnant men these days, new normal, get use to it.

[[james]]

We have all heard this said, I think. Somehow becoming a monk prevents an arahat from soon dying. How does that happen?

They won’t be able to look after themselves.

Why not? What is the cause and extent of their incapacity? Perhaps a similar inability applies to Sotapannas and so on who are said to only take rebirth in the higher realms.

[DNS]

Why not? What is the cause and extent of their incapacity? Perhaps a similar inability applies to Sotapannas and so on who are said to only take rebirth in the higher realms.

Imagine a layman who is a middle-manager at Ford Motor Company or some other corporation. He becomes an arahant. How will he still go to work and engage in cutthroat negotiations with suppliers, etc? He might be asked by his bosses to fire some of his workers below him. How will he do that? He wouldn't have any interest in those worldly matters.

[Mahabrahma]

If we don't have Enlightened people doing prescribed duties in society, then society will degrade into child abuse and war. Such things are already happening world wide. We need Enlightened beings everywhere, not just sitting in the Forest to be still as trees. We already have trees for that. Not to disrespect the Sangha, their practices are Wonderful, but there is also a great place for Enlightened Lay Practitioners in our world.

[cappuccino]

Daniel Ingram is an arahant,

No he’s not

Who are you to tell him he’s not?

I’m telling you he’s not

[thepea]

No he’s not

Who are you to tell him he’s not?

I’m telling you he’s not

A shrug is not convincing. What is the harm if he is?

[[james]]

Why not? What is the cause and extent of their incapacity? Perhaps a similar inability applies to Sotapannas and so on who are said to only take rebirth in the higher realms.

Imagine a layman who is a middle-manager at Ford Motor Company or some other corporation. He becomes an arahant. How will he still go to work and engage in cutthroat negotiations with suppliers, etc? He might be asked by his bosses to fire some of his workers below him. How will he do that? He wouldn't have any interest in those worldly matters.

I don’t see why not. It is very possible to live in a very simple manner and yet be completely involved in this complex samsaric world. I’m thinking of Sayagyi U Ba Khin, for example. I’m not saying he was an arahant but he was clearly deeply into the Buddhist way of being while yet fully capable of an influential government role in Burma. Why would an arahant be necessarily less capable?

[santa100]

I don’t see why not. It is very possible to live in a very simple manner and yet be completely involved in this complex samsaric world. I’m thinking of Sayagyi U Ba Khin, for example. I’m not saying he was an arahant but he was clearly deeply into the Buddhist way of being while yet fully capable of an influential government role in Burma. Why would an arahant be necessarily less capable?

Easy, a society would collapse if arahants continue to take part in its workforce. A few simple examples, an arahant in the role of a military general, he'd order his troops to sit in meditation postures and let the enemies slowly saw off their limbs one by one without putting up any resistance; or he's a big tech company's CEO who's supposed to slash 20,000 jobs to save the company from going bankrupt, but of course he did not, and the company went bankrupt as a result; or in the role of a director of some good wholesome industry, like a giant healthcare institution, and as predicted, opened up the hospital door to every single one free of charge, free services care, free medicines, free room and board! Now imagine all hospitals in the country were run by arahants with that kind of business model and you'd see how fast the healthcare industry collapses! Bottom line is, everyone has his own role to do in a society: generals, cops, doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants,...and.... Arahants. As much as you wouldn't want a cop to cut open your body to fix your clogged heart, you wouldn't want an Arahant to take the place of your country's military general to lead his army to fight against some vicious invaders. In both cases, you WILL DIE! so just let Arahants be what they do best, spiritual role models and teachers, that should be it.

[DNS]

I don’t see why not. It is very possible to live in a very simple manner and yet be completely involved in this complex samsaric world. I’m thinking of Sayagyi U Ba Khin, for example. I’m not saying he was an arahant but he was clearly deeply into the Buddhist way of being while yet fully capable of an influential government role in Burma. Why would an arahant be necessarily less capable?

Easy, a society would collapse if arahants continue to take part in its workforce. A few simple examples, an arahant in the role of a military general, he'd order his troops to sit in meditation postures and let the enemies slowly saw off their limbs one by one without putting up any resistance; or he's a big tech company's CEO who's supposed to slash 20,000 jobs to save the company from going bankrupt, but of course he did not, and the company went bankrupt as a result; or in the role of a director of some good wholesome industry, like a giant healthcare institution, and as predicted, opened up the hospital door to every single one free of charge, free services care, free medicines, free room and board! Now imagine all hospitals in the country were run by arahants with that kind of business model and you'd see how fast the healthcare industry collapses! Bottom line is, everyone has his own role to do in a society: generals, cops, doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants,...and.... Arahants. As much as you wouldn't want a cop to cut open your body to fix your clogged heart, you wouldn't want an Arahant to take the place of your country's military general to lead his army to fight against some vicious invaders. In both cases, you WILL DIE! so just let Arahants be what they do best, spiritual role models and teachers, that should be it.

What I was trying to convey, but you said it much better.

[Mahabrahma]

Don't think an Arhat or a Buddha is bereft of knowledge on how to handle the complex Saha World which they have overcome. They make the best Teachers, Presidents, Police Officers, and army Generals. If you have not seen this yet, and think your Buddhism is contained only in monestaries and forest huts and bamboo groves, you're too far from the Truth about the purpose of Buddhahood. If you think you aren't a better person instead of some kind of cow who blocks the street every day as an Arhat, you would have no reason to attain such an Achievement.

Mooooooooo.

[[james]]

How about the arahant next door, has a garden, brings over some veggies as a gift to her neighbor. Simple, not grandiose.

Easy, a society would collapse if arahants continue to take part in its workforce. A few simple examples …

No it wouldn’t. Your examples are, if anything, simplistic.

Bottom line is, everyone has his own role to do in a society: generals, cops, doctors, lawyers, engineers, accountants,...and.... Arahants.

Right. So is the only role of an arahant in society that of a (Buddhist) monk?

[DNS]

How about the arahant next door, has a garden, brings over some veggies as a gift to her neighbor. Simple, not grandiose.

That's just one aspect of life and you don't need to be an arahant to do that. Using santa100's examples, how would the arahant handle those duties? Would the Army general still kill and order his troops to kill?

[Mahabrahma]

Well as part of the Mahayana, certain Vajrayana monks can live like householders while observing strict precepts allowed in their ruleset based on the current state of the lineage. Theravada monks can disrobe after their attainment if they want to make the sacrifice of helping society, and don't think that help will be minute. In Buddhahood one can help others far beyond ordinary thought capacity can describe them as doing. As it was said about Jesus Christ: "If all the books in the world contained the deeds of Jesus Christ, even they would not be able to contain all of the things that he did to help others."

[Mahabrahma]

How about the arahant next door, has a garden, brings over some veggies as a gift to her neighbor. Simple, not grandiose.

That's just one aspect of life and you don't need to be an arahant to do that. Using santa100's examples, how would the arahant handle those duties? Would the Army general still kill and order his troops to kill?

And what if he doesn't? And what if someone unworthy of the position does?