Encountering devas and mental illness

[Bundokji]

There are many instances in the suttas of encountering devas or even Brahmas. It is safe to assume that such phenomena appear only to advanced meditators.

If the meditators was to encounter such beings for the first time, what should he do? How can he be sure that he is not mentally ill?

[Mahabrahma]

They want to put you away because you're different and special, but at the same time prepare you for an entrance back to society. All psychic phenomena have a source, so you should rather think is a mara trying to deceive you, or have you truly met a Deva? Instead of asking whether you are mentally ill or not..

[Bundokji]

They want to put you away because you're different and special, but at the same time prepare you for an entrance back to society. All psychic phenomena have a source, so you should rather think is a mara trying to deceive you, or have you truly met a Deva? Instead of asking whether you are mentally ill or not..

This sutta makes the "mara vs deva" criteria insufficient.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

While mental illness is relatively modern concept, the ancient teachings link it to vipaka:

"The drinking of fermented & distilled liquors — when indulged in, developed, & pursued — is something that leads to hell, leads to rebirth as a common animal, leads to the realm of the hungry shades. The slightest of all the results coming from drinking fermented & distilled liquors is that, when one becomes a human being, it leads to mental derangement."

[Mahabrahma]

I mean, most delusions have their sad root in a deceiver, that's what I mean by a mara. Unless you are deceiving yourself, which is also a full possibility. So it's important to take an inner inventory.

Then there's Right View and the lense one can look through, seeing, just seeing that things are as they are. In this scope one can know whether it is a Deva they have met, or whether it's delusion that needs to be purified. Buddhism is the process.

[Bundokji]

I mean, most delusions have their sad root in a deceiver, that's what I mean by a mara. Unless you are deceiving yourself, which is also a full possibility. So it's important to take an inner inventory.

Then there's Right View and the lense one can look through, seeing, just seeing that things are as they are. In this scope one can know whether it is a Deva they have met, or whether it's delusion that needs to be purified. Buddhism is the process.

Self deception can be driven by the power of suggestion. This sheds a main skepticism about spiritual experience. However, i did not open this thread to shed skepticism about encountering devas through the modern lens. They can be a source of great guidance, such as in the case of Bahiya:

Thus have I heard. At one time the Lord was staying near Savatthi in the Jeta Wood at Anathapindika's monastery. At that time Bahiya of the Bark-cloth was living by the seashore at Supparaka. He was respected, revered, honored, venerated, and given homage, and was one who obtained the requisites of robes, almsfood, lodging, and medicines.

Now while he was in seclusion, this reflection arose in the mind of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth: "Am I one of those in the world who are arahats or who have entered the path to arahatship?"

Then a devata who was a former blood-relation of Bahiya of the Bark-cloth understood that reflection in his mind. Being compassionate and wishing to benefit him, he approached Bahiya and said: "You, Bahiya, are neither an arahant nor have you entered the path to arahatship. You do not follow that practice whereby you could be an arahant or enter the path to arahatship."

"Then, in the world including the devas, who are arahats or have entered the path to arahatship?"

"There is, Bahiya, in a far country a town called Savatthi. There the Lord now lives who is the Arahant, the Fully Enlightened One. That Lord, Bahiya, is indeed an arahant and he teaches Dhamma for the realization of arahatship."

I do not know cases of first encounters with devas in the suttas, but in the Muslim tradition for example, prophet Muhammed was quite scared when he heard the voice of Angel Gabriel for the first time (which happened after long retreats in a cave). Modern skeptics hint that he might have been schizophrenic or epileptic.

[Mahabrahma]

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. It's better not to criticize the Spiritual experiences of other people. Even the guy who almost choked me to death 8 months ago who called himself a false "Jesus" I did not turn away in his face, just pressed charges and got him out of my vicinity with the police. Only to my friends did I talk about how he had no Spiritual Strata present then in him.

[Bundokji]

Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. It's better not to criticize the Spiritual experiences of other people. Even the guy who almost choked me to death 8 months ago who called himself a false "Jesus" I did not turn away in his face, just pressed charges and got him out of my vicinity with the police. Only to my friends did I talk about how he had no Spiritual Strata present then in him.

To put it differently, what makes such encounters a genuine spiritual experience considering that we have examples of deluded devas and deluded humans?

[dharmacorps]

If one has visions in meditations, then you really need to have a in-person meditation teacher, because it is going to be hard to know what you are experiencing. One of the bigger pitfalls I've heard of is believing the visions are "real" and falling down a rabbit hole from there.

If one has a mental illness along the lines of schizophrenia with already existing paranoia or hallucinations, meditation isn't recommended by most authorities on the subject.

[Mahabrahma]

Devas are usually highly devoted to Vishnu. Humans too, find a way, hence all the different religions which are all here for the same purpose. Gautama Buddha has referred to Himself as Brahma I have read. And the Hindus have Scriptures that call Him an "Avatar of Vishnu." Taking all of that into account, the Clearly Wise Buddha, Gautama, has set up a system of Enlightenment that even the Devas seek. If you look at most serious Suttas you will find that the Monks respect the Devas highly, and the Devas do so the same in return to the Monks. Simple alms giving to the Sangha by a village person can have one be reborn as a Deva very easily. Such is the Buddha Way. And a Beautiful Way to walk it. Do not criticize Devas, do not belitte them, they are on a very important Spiritual Path in often directly serving the Buddha and His Dharma and His Sangha. They see the Light of the Divine Holy Life in Buddha's Teachings, and though few Devas regress from the Spiritual Progress they have made, Buddhahood will strengthen their position for then they will not fall. And it is said even Shiva can fall [, and He is the creator of Advaita Vedanta.]

Om.

[Mahabrahma]

If one has a mental illness along the lines of schizophrenia with already existing paranoia or hallucinations, meditation isn't recommended by most authorities on the subject.

I've been serving and ministering to mentally ill people for the past sixteen years, and what I can say is that mindfulness and other forms of meditation are quite important to get the mind in order. Buddhism is really something that has caught on in the Mental Health industry, especially with the different recovery Paradigms Thich Nhat Hanh has provided to the System.

[Bundokji]

If one has visions in meditations, then you really need to have a in-person meditation teacher, because it is going to be hard to know what you are experiencing. One of the bigger pitfalls I've heard of is believing the visions are "real" and falling down a rabbit hole from there.

If one has a mental illness along the lines of schizophrenia with already existing paranoia or hallucinations, meditation isn't recommended by most authorities on the subject.

So, if the meditation teacher confirms it, that makes it genuine?

I guess a first encounter would be particularly scary for non-schizophrenic, considering that they are not accustomed to extra-sensory experiences.

[Mahabrahma]

There's an old Biblical Aphorism that must be used: "When sin abounds, Grace increases. But by no means should one sin!" So when one is too stressed in this world, or is hit by too much of a wave of information, or is demon possessed, the Universe will in turn give one the abilities to fight these ailments.

The best way to test whether your Spiritual Experience is genuine is to test it by your Metta. When you Love someone, you just know it, and can't deny it. In the same way a Spiritual Experience must be tested with your own Love. Sure, doubts will come, but Love will show you the Truth. When you know, you know. You just know.

[Bundokji]

There's an old Biblical Aphorism that must be used: "When sin abounds, Grace increases. But by no means should one sin!" So when one is too stressed in this world, or is hit by too much of a wave of information, or is demon possessed, the Universe will in turn give one the abilities to fight these ailments.

The best way to test whether your Spiritual Experience is genuine is to test it by your Metta. When you Love someone, you just know it, and can't deny it. In the same way a Spiritual Experience must be tested with your own Love. Sure, doubts will come, but Love will show you the Truth. When you know, you know. You just know.

Love means very little when it comes to evaluating truths. Most of us delight in sensuality, and "we just know it" so to speak, and yet, it is described as delusional. According to Jordan Peterson, show a male human two circles and a triangle and you get them fixated. How about this as a criteria?

[Mahabrahma]

Can't deny Love or the Gingerbread man who chants "God is Love" will skip away with the Purpose of your Dharma!

[Bundokji]

Can't deny Love or the Gingerbread man who chants "God is Love" will skip away with the Purpose of your Dharma!

Here is another example about love as a criteria, from the suttas:

Then, taking Ven. Nanda by the arm — as a strong man might flex his extended arm or extend his flexed arm — the Blessed One disappeared from Jeta's Grove and reappeared among the devas of the heaven of the Thirty-three [Tāvatiṃsa]. Now on that occasion about 500 dove-footed nymphs had come to wait upon Sakka, the ruler of the devas. The Blessed One said to Ven. Nanda, "Nanda, do you see these 500 dove-footed nymphs?"

"Yes, lord."

"What do you think, Nanda? Which is lovelier, better looking, more charming: the Sakyan girl, the envy of the countryside, or these 500 dove-footed nymphs?"

"Lord, compared to these 500 dove-footed nymphs, the Sakyan girl, the envy of the countryside, is like a cauterized monkey with its ears & nose cut off. She doesn't count. She's not even a small fraction. There's no comparison. The 500 dove-footed nymphs are lovelier, better looking, more charming."