Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

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Mahabrahma
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Are you talking about something like this:

I am not breathing.

Inhale breath.

Buddha is the breathing.

I am not breathing.

Exhale breath.

Buddha is the breathing.

In.

Buddha is the breathing.

Out.

Buddha is the breathing.

And so on.

?
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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cappuccino
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:57 pm Are you talking about something like this:

Buddha is the breathing.
what the hell
Lal
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:48 pm How should viññāṇa be translated in order to eliminate the perceived contradiction?
That is the right question. I have explained it here: "Two Types of Vinnana – We Have Control Over Kamma Vinnana":viewtopic.php?p=484554#p484554

More current posts at: https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-conce ... aggregate/
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

mjaviem wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:52 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:45 pm ... This is a nonsensical statement.
Do you think suchness or thusness is nonsensical?
The "suchness" that you seem to be thinking of is similar to that of Yogācāra. It makes little sense to me, for there to be a pure consciousness without conceptions. It makes little sense, because we are told that conceptions go with conciousness and with them feelings too.
And everyone is talking about biology when speaking about cessation of consciousness and cessation of feeling and cessation of perception They say its not possible for the Arahant because they think of biological functions rather than human experience
Since we are talking about immaterial attainments, I don't see how biology comes into it. There are 6 senses in Buddhism, not 5. Conciousness, vedanā & sañña have nothing to do with biology. The nearest we get to that is the idea of the 4 elements, with one's conciousness, vedanā & sañña being dependent upon a physical basis in addition to an immaterial one. That's not biology though, no medicine, nor physiology.
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Mahabrahma »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:00 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:57 pm Are you talking about something like this:

Buddha is the breathing.
what the hell
Thich Nhat Hanh teaches a meditation like this.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:57 pm Are you talking about something like this:

I am not breathing.

Inhale breath.

Buddha is the breathing.

I am not breathing.

Exhale breath.

Buddha is the breathing.

In.

Buddha is the breathing.

Out.

Buddha is the breathing.

And so on.

?
Who are you asking?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Mahabrahma
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Oh.

I was responding to this reply to someone else in a positive light.
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 8:45 pmThe problem is that what you say is nonsensical. For example, you say there is no experience of pain there is just pain. This is a nonsensical statement.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:07 pm Thich Nhat Hanh teaches a meditation like this.
Buddha is teacher
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Mahabrahma »

No one to experience it, therefore no experience, just thusness like a guy was saying. It's an early Buddhist thought though.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Mahabrahma »

cappuccino wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:12 pm
Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:07 pm Thich Nhat Hanh teaches a meditation like this.
Buddha is teacher
We're supposed to put on the robe of a Buddha and Teach one day too.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:14 pm We're supposed to put on the robe of a Buddha and Teach one day too.
You can’t put on the robe of a Buddha


Not easily anyway
Last edited by cappuccino on Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

:focus:
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Bundokji
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Bundokji »

Lal wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:04 pm
Bundokji wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:48 pm How should viññāṇa be translated in order to eliminate the perceived contradiction?
That is the right question. I have explained it here: "Two Types of Vinnana – We Have Control Over Kamma Vinnana":viewtopic.php?p=484554#p484554

More current posts at: https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-conce ... aggregate/
Dividing Vinnana into two types does not make the perceived contradiction an error of translation, considering that you seem to acknowledge that the tipitaka does not explicitly mention two types of consiousness.

Are you implying that the elders who collected the suttas overlooked adding "kamma" before "vinnana" in their exposition of PS?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

Bundokji wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:38 pm
Lal wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 9:04 pm
Bundokji wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 6:48 pm How should viññāṇa be translated in order to eliminate the perceived contradiction?
That is the right question. I have explained it here: "Two Types of Vinnana – We Have Control Over Kamma Vinnana":viewtopic.php?p=484554#p484554

More current posts at: https://puredhamma.net/key-dhamma-conce ... aggregate/
Dividing Vinnana into two types does not make the perceived contradiction an error of translation, considering that you seem to acknowledge that the tipitaka does not explicitly mention two types of consiousness.

Are you implying that the elders who collected the suttas overlooked adding "kamma" before "vinnana" in their exposition of PS?
The answer is a bit long. But you first need to realize that "Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?" is not the only contradiction.

Contradiction 2- "Avijjā nirodhā" Leads to "vedanā nirodho"?

From the same sutta that I quoted earlier, "Paṭi­c­ca­samu­p­pāda Sutta (SN 12.1)": https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/en/suja ... =latin#3.6

"When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease......When contact ceases, feeling ceases.

Again, did the Buddha lose all feelings upon Enlightenment?
- The answer is that vedana are also of different types. What ceases is "samphassa-ja-vedana."
- See "Two Ways Vēdanā (Feelings) Can Arise": viewtopic.php?p=491701#p491701

There are more terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda that are in brief (uddesa version). They need to be explained (niddesa version) and sometimes in detail with examples (patiniddesa version.)

I discussed this issue before in a bit more detail. See "Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda": viewtopic.php?p=655847#p655847
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Bundokji »

Lal wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 10:23 pm The answer is a bit long. But you first need to realize that "Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?" is not the only contradiction.

Contradiction 2- "Avijjā nirodhā" Leads to "vedanā nirodho"?

From the same sutta that I quoted earlier, "Paṭi­c­ca­samu­p­pāda Sutta (SN 12.1)": https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/en/suja ... =latin#3.6

"When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease......When contact ceases, feeling ceases.

Again, did the Buddha lose all feelings upon Enlightenment?
- The answer is that vedana are also of different types. What ceases is "samphassa-ja-vedana."
- See "Two Ways Vēdanā (Feelings) Can Arise": viewtopic.php?p=491701#p491701

There are more terms in Paṭicca Samuppāda that are in brief (uddesa version). They need to be explained (niddesa version) and sometimes in detail with examples (patiniddesa version.)

I discussed this issue before in a bit more detail. See "Distortion of Pāli Keywords in Paṭicca Samuppāda": viewtopic.php?p=655847#p655847
The contradictions you are presenting are based on your understanding that PS in reverse mode is a description of the Buddha or the Arahant, rather than a subset of this/that conditionality.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.
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