Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

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Joe.c
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Joe.c »

User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 9:34 am
Anyway, just simplify your thinking first. It seems like you are moving between allowable and not allowable. 😅

No developed faculties = No knowledge.

Good luck.
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Lal
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Lal »

May I remind everyone that the topic is: "Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?"

Do you agree with the translation of “viññāṇa“ as “consciousness?”
- There is no need to cite other translations. This determination involves only logic.
- “Viññāṇa“ means “consciousness” (in all contexts), AND “viññāṇa nirodha” is "cessation of consciousness" per Bhikkhu Sujato and many other translators.
- That leads to the contradiction that Buddha must have lost consciousness upon Enlightenment!

Let me show you Bhikkhu Sujato's other sutta translation where this universal usage of “viññāṇa“ as “consciousness” is evident. This is just a few few.

SN 12.64: [/b]https://suttacentral.net/sn12.64/en/suj ... =latin#2.2
- “Where consciousness is established and grows, name and form are conceived:
- @ 6.2 marker: “Where consciousness is not established and doesn’t grow, name and form are not conceived. “
- How can "consciousness" grow? Consciousness means awareness: https://www.google.com/search?q=conscio ... nt=gws-wiz

SN 22.53: https://suttacentral.net/sn22.53/en/suj ... =latin#1.3
- “As long as consciousness remains, it would remain involved with form, supported by form, founded on form. And with a sprinkle of relishing, it would grow, increase, and mature. "
- @3.8 marker: “Since that consciousness does not become established and does not grow, with no power to regenerate, it is freed.“
- How can "consciousness be freed?"

SN 12.38: https://suttacentral.net/sn12.38/en/suj ... =latin#1.4 (same verses in SN 12.38 through 12.40)
- “When consciousness is established and grows, there is rebirth into a new state of existence in the future. “
- @marker 3.3: “When consciousness is not established and doesn’t grow, there’s no rebirth into a new state of existence in the future. “
- How can stopping the growth of consciousness stop future rebirths?

SN 12.59: [/b] https://suttacentral.net/sn12.59/en/suj ... =latin#1.2
- “There are things that are prone to being fettered. When you concentrate on the gratification provided by these things, consciousness is conceived."
- Reverse PS explained @marker 4.4: “In the same way, there are things that are prone to being fettered. When you concentrate on the drawbacks of these things, consciousness is not conceived. When consciousness ceases, name and form cease. …That is how this entire mass of suffering ceases.”
- Now you should at least get the idea that the “viññāṇa“ referred to in the above cases MUST BE something more than just "consciousness."
- P. S.: It is intimately related to the "stopping of future suffering" that the Buddha taught.

Again, it is a waste of time to quote numerous translators who translate the above verses similarly.
- If the foundation is rotten, the building cannot last long. This practice of mechanically and mindlessly translating suttas must end.
User13866
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Lal wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:32 am
- How can "consciousness" grow?
These translation make sense...

Consciousness grows as it proliferates in as far as bhava isn't ended, for that long consciousness will arise as one thing and cease as another.

It's not the same consciousness growing...

Haven't you picked up on the fact that past consciousness has ceased and the term 'was' applies to it? That future consciousness is not yet been brought into being and that the term 'will be' applies to it, not the the term 'was' or 'is'?

This consequent coming into being of consciousness is what is meant by it's growing.

The feelings you had yesterday are gone, they 'were', the term was applies to them.. You don't see one and the same feeling persist over time..

Anyway i am out of this thread. I've a feeling this will be another marathon of Lal explaining why he is right.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:55 pm
There is one good example where i was wrong on this forum. It's about the exceptional dogs keeping their tail down as a rule, there Sam Vara showed me up and it didn't traumatize me at all. I didn't get upset about it and i didn't need to be right about it. I've since seen more of these dogs when in southern europe thinking about Sam Vara's teachings. That demonstrates that your psychoanalysis is wrong and unsubstantiated.
It's the views that we hold dear which can be hard to lose.
Do you really think i am stupid to the point of claiming that consciousness should be explained as 'divided knowing' because this is what follows from your argument.
That is what you were initially arguing, and now you are backtracking. It's quite clear to all who read this ghastly conversation. On stupidity, I really couldn't comment. You do however show a lack of critical thinking skills. That can always be improved though. I did say previously I would leave it there, but I'll make this the last post on this particular topic.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:38 pm
User13866 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 3:55 pm
There is one good example where i was wrong on this forum. It's about the exceptional dogs keeping their tail down as a rule, there Sam Vara showed me up and it didn't traumatize me at all. I didn't get upset about it and i didn't need to be right about it. I've since seen more of these dogs when in southern europe thinking about Sam Vara's teachings. That demonstrates that your psychoanalysis is wrong and unsubstantiated.
It's the views that we hold dear which can be hard to lose.
Do you really think i am stupid to the point of claiming that consciousness should be explained as 'divided knowing' because this is what follows from your argument.
That is what you were initially arguing, and now you are backtracking. It's quite clear to all who read this ghastly conversation. On stupidity, I really couldn't comment. You do however show a lack of critical thinking skills. That can always be improved though. I did say previously I would leave it there, but I'll make this the last post on this particular topic.
It's rather funny when people on the internet tell me that they know better than me as to what my intentions are and what i mean when i say things.

They even argue about it saying they know better than me.

It's really hilarious.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Lal wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:32 am

Again, it is a waste of time to quote numerous translators who translate the above verses similarly.
- If the foundation is rotten, the building cannot last long. This practice of mechanically and mindlessly translating suttas must end.
Begun, the age of dubious translations, has.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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nirodh27
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by nirodh27 »

Lal wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:32 am May I remind everyone that the topic is: "Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?"

Do you agree with the translation of “viññāṇa“ as “consciousness?”
- There is no need to cite other translations. This determination involves only logic.
- “Viññāṇa“ means “consciousness” (in all contexts), AND “viññāṇa nirodha” is "cessation of consciousness" per Bhikkhu Sujato and many other translators.
- That leads to the contradiction that Buddha must have lost consciousness upon Enlightenment!

Let me show you Bhikkhu Sujato's other sutta translation where this universal usage of “viññāṇa“ as “consciousness” is evident. This is just a few few.

...

Again, it is a waste of time to quote numerous translators who translate the above verses similarly.
- If the foundation is rotten, the building cannot last long. This practice of mechanically and mindlessly translating suttas must end.
Hi,

May I ask what is your proposal instead?

Because SN22.79 and the agama conterpart defines consciousness as:
One distinguishes (vijiiniiti), bhiksus, that is why it is called
consciousness. What does one distinguish? One
distinguishes sour or bitter, acrid or sweet, alkaline or non-alkaline,
saline or non-saline. One distinguishes, bhiksus, that is why it is
called consciousness.
The characteristic of distinguishing is the aggregate of
consciousness with attachment. What is one conscious of ? One is
conscious of visible forms, sounds, odours, tastes, tangibles, mental
objects. That is why it is called the aggregate of consciousness with
attachment.
I think that we should start with this no? Why we should translate it differently?

About consciousness that grows
Growth, increase, and abundance of consciousness is caused by seeking
delight (nandi-upasevana ~ ~), or desire (raga Jt) for material form,
feeling, perception, and activities. If desire for those four is abandoned, then
consciousness is deprived of its object or platform. Without that platform,
consciousness will not grow and generate activity, and thus is liberated.
Seems a way to describe the act of detachment. You want to delight in x (say a car or a thought). Desire is abandoned, consciousness does not land there by will and, if it lands for other reasons, it doesn't grows or generate activity. Not landing on a object, there is no possible suffering about that, no possible generation of desires, actions, feelings etc. Remember that consciousness is always "Consciousness of". If you delight into "I am the ruler of the world" that instead will generate activity, consciousness will land and so it will persist* (in the form of attachment). That counter-act of non-delight will produce (absence,cessation of) no consciousness-of, no ignorance-contact and of course no feeling, etc. There are ofc other type of lectures, but every one seems inescapable of consciousness = becoming aware of a certain object. that usage of consciousness (consciousness of) really helps to see the arising of consciousness(es) in time and should make evident how consciousness passes away as well by non-delight/non-acquisition and dispel the notion of "I am, I am That, I will be" in regard to consciousness and Avoid to think in terms of "who is conscious?" Which is same as "Who feels", a reasoning that takes existence as something that persist without being dependent on craving.

Choong Mun-keat adds:
The word "distinguishes" (or "is conscious of', vijanati) in SN is similar -in
meaning to "characteristic of distinguishing" and "is conscious of' in SA.
Thus, although the SN version of the second account mentions only flavours
as the objects, the two versions agree in teaching that consciousness is a sort
of becoming aware of objects.
This section has shown the two versions largely in agreement in defining
the five aggregates in two different ways: (1) by listing the components of
each aggregate, and (2) by giving a mainly etymological derivation of each
of the five terms.
*
Bhiksus, by attachment (or approach) to material form (riipupiiyam), consciousness (viiifiiil}.aIp), having an abode (titJ:hamiinaIp), may persist (titJ:heyya).
Last edited by nirodh27 on Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
auto
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by auto »

nirodh27 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 2:38 pm
Lal wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:32 am ..
Hi,

May I ask what is your proposal instead?
..
as an example what he means by vinnana,
https://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?p=702418#p702418 wrote: ..
8. In the “Mahā Nidāna Sutta (DN 15)“ (https://suttacentral.net/dn15/en/sujato ... latin#21.1): “..Viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpan’ti iti kho panetaṃ vuttaṃ, tadānanda, imināpetaṃ pariyāyena veditabbaṃ, yathā viññāṇapaccayā nāmarūpaṃ. Viññāṇañca hi, ānanda, mātukucchismiṃ na okkamissatha, api nu kho nāmarūpaṃ mātukucchismiṃ samuccissathā” ti? “No hetaṃ, Bhante.” “Viññāṇañca hi, ānanda, mātukucchismiṃ okkamitvā vokkamissatha, api nu kho nāmarūpaṃ itthattāya abhi­nib­bat­tis­sathā” ti? “No hetaṃ, Bhante.”

Translation: “.With consciousness as a condition, there is mentality-materiality (nāmarūpa). How that is so, Ānanda, should be understood in this way: If viññāṇa were not to descend into the mother’s womb, would mentality-materiality (nama rūpa) take shape in the womb?” “Certainly not, venerable sir.” “If the descended viññāṇa were to depart, would mentality-materiality be generated into this present state of being?” “Certainly not, venerable sir.”

- Here, it is clear that by “a viññāṇa descending to the womb,” the Buddha meant the descent of the manōmaya kaya (gandhabba), not the paṭisandhi citta. A paṭisandhi viññāṇa cannot come out (depart) of the womb! In #12 below, I will present evidence that the other four khandhas always accompany viññāna. That includes the rupakkhandha (and a gandhabba has all five khandhas).

- That is clear from the verse at marker 21.6, which says that “viññāṇa” has determined the sex of the baby (“kumārakassa vā kumārikāya vā” or “boy or girl.”) As pointed out in #12 below, a paṭisandhi viññāṇa(or any kamma viññāṇa) cannot exist without a rupa (i.e., at least a suddhāṭṭhaka.) - In this case, the bhāva dasaka (which indicates the sex of the child) also “descends to the womb” together with hadaya vatthu and pasāda rupa in the gandhabba.
- The Pāli word “Okkanti” is often mistranslated as “rebirth.” But it means the “descend” of an already formed manōmaya kaya (gandhabba). Rebirth happens (and a gandhabba is born) within a thought moment, at the cuti-paṭisandhi moment; see “Cuti-Patisandhi – An Abhidhamma Description.“https://puredhamma.net/abhidhamma/gandh ... scription/
based on the above it is manomaya kaya.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:47 pm
Lal wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 11:32 am

Again, it is a waste of time to quote numerous translators who translate the above verses similarly.
- If the foundation is rotten, the building cannot last long. This practice of mechanically and mindlessly translating suttas must end.
Begun, the age of dubious translations, has.
Entering the age of translations based on occult knowledge.

Lal will teach us the real pali
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Coëmgenu »

User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:41 pmIt's rather funny when people on the internet tell me that they know better than me as to what my intentions are and what i mean when i say things.

They even argue about it saying they know better than me.
IMO, it happens because you are so poor and transparent a liar with regards to them. If you do better next time, no one will question your obvious backpedalling, because it won't be obvious.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:31 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:41 pmIt's rather funny when people on the internet tell me that they know better than me as to what my intentions are and what i mean when i say things.

They even argue about it saying they know better than me.
IMO, it happens because you are so poor and transparent a liar with regards to them. If you do better next time, no one will question your obvious backpedalling, because it won't be obvious.
I still don't understand what exactly you are talking about.

Maybe i am just not getting what it is you are criticizing me over..

I do still hold that vinnana's is literally broken up vi+jnana as to it's etymology and it's what i've been constantly explaining...
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Coëmgenu wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 4:31 pm
User13866 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:41 pmIt's rather funny when people on the internet tell me that they know better than me as to what my intentions are and what i mean when i say things.

They even argue about it saying they know better than me.
IMO, it happens because you are so poor and transparent a liar with regards to them. If you do better next time, no one will question your obvious backpedalling, because it won't be obvious.
Show me posts where i supposedly lied...

Lying asserts that i had intention to deceive and i assume you can demonstrate ill intent on my part since you are relentlessly accusing me of lying and further lying to conceal my lies.

As i understand it, you assert that i held that etymology is an ultimate definition of a word vinnana?

And that later when you called it out that i held this to be a definition i started backpedalling to say 'oh nono that is not what i meant, i was merely discussing etymology!'

Why do you infer that i acted in bad faith is interesting.

At this point you are basically not allowing me to clarify what i've been saying. My words must mean what you choose them to mean and you suppose i can't be allowed the benefit of doubt?

This is some malicious stuff...
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Noble Sangha »

User13866 wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 10:06 pm I assumed that OP wants to insist on a new translation.
I believe the OP isn't insisting on a completely new translation for the word vinnana as “consciousness”, but rather the translation should be augmented, clarified / differentiate and most importantly based on context. If one looks up the English definition of "consciousness', here's what we get:

- "the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings."
- "a person's awareness or perception of something."

The main point OP is trying to make is exactly this:

“OP: - “Translating “viññāṇa” as "consciousness" leads to self-contradiction. Therefore, there is a CRITICAL ERROR with that translation. We can discuss what the correct translation SHOULD BE after settling this issue.”

-“the contradiction of translating “viññāṇa “ as “consciousness” regardless of the context.”

For example, when the English word "consciousness" is used by itself for the translation of vinnana, from the reverse Paticca Samuppada process "vinnana nirodha", it would be / is translated as "consciousness ceases". Which everyone can see for themselves.

https://suttacentral.net/sn12.1/en/suja ... =latin#3.1

OP: - “Avijjāya tveva asesavirāganirodhā saṅkhāranirodho, saṅkhāranirodhā viññāṇanirodho. At marker 3.1, those verses are translated as When ignorance fades away and ceases with nothing left over, choices cease. When choices cease, consciousness ceases.
- That means there will be no consciousness when avijja is completely removed from a mind. There is no way to avoid that conclusion per that translation.
- Now, all Arahants (and the Buddha) would have removed avijjā (cessation of ignorance of the Four Noble Truths.) That is also a fact that no one can deny.
- But according to the translation above, the translator says, “if avijja has been removed, consciousness will cease too."
- That means the Buddha must have lost consciousness upon attaining Buddhahood. Does it not?
- Obviously, that cannot be true since the Buddha lived for 45 more years teaching Dhamma. He must have had consciousness or awareness. You can search for the definition of consciousness and make sure that is what it means”.

I mentioned above what the English definition is given for "consciousness" in English. I'll repeat it here once again.

- "the state of being aware of and responsive to one's surroundings."
- "a person's awareness or perception of something."

One of the points OP is trying to make is that when avija (ignorance) completely ceases (when one becomes enlighten), which are the Buddha's and Arahants, does their consciousness cease? If we take / translate vinnana literally just as “consciousness” in "all cases", that would imply / state that the Buddha and arahants consciousness would cease when they become enlightened which has lead / leading to much confusion for Buddhist practitioners today.

Do the Buddha and Arahants no longer become aware and responsive to one's surroundings? Do they no longer become aware or perceive things?

Myself have seen many times on here and other forums where people asks, "does the Buddha and Arahants have no consciousness?" and other similar questions / discussions. Pretty much in all cases, no conclusion was / is reached.

OP:“That is the confusion we have today about translating “viññāṇa” as "consciousness" in all situations.”
Jack19990101 wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 12:28 am yeah... vinnana should be contextual.
I believe that's exactly what the OP is trying to say /point out.
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:58 pm
Several users quoted Venerables Dhammanando and Pesala weighing in upon the shortcomings and errors of the Waharakist understandings.
What I’m about to mention isn’t meant to criticize any individuals; after all, we're just sharing our views and opinions.

But didn't Dhammanando disrobed to get married? Can I take him to be someone capable of evaluating Venerable Waharaka Thero teachings (which includes Lal)?

I have literally gone through every criticism here on DW against Lal and Venerable Waharaka Thero teachings. Most of the criticism that I have seen is that their translations and explanation used to interpret the sutta’s and Buddha dhamma doesn’t always follow the conventional / prevailing translation and Pali etymology that’s mostly commonly used and therefore they're making things up.

But the thing is, myself have seen many disagreements between others (that’s not related to Venerable Waharaka Thero interpretations) on how some of the sutta’s / Pali words should be translated / interpreted. If "all" the conventional Pali dictionaries and etymology being used today were completely accurate / precise / correct, why does it sometimes lead to inconsistencies / discrepancies / errors when used in translations?

Some of things mentioned / discussed in this thread is a perfect example.
I am a Buddhist that doesn't practice Buddhism. What I practice is nekkhamma, abyāpāda, avihiṁsā, viraga, nirodha or the Noble Eight Fold Path. The elimination / eradication / extermination of defilements, kilesa's, raga, dosa, moha and asava's.

Lineage: Buddha > Sthaviravada > Vibhajjavada > Theravada > Striving for Nibbana.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:11 pm One of the points OP is trying to make is that when avija (ignorance) completely ceases (when one becomes enlighten), which are the Buddha's and Arahants, does their consciousness cease? If we take / translate vinnana literally just as “consciousness” in "all cases", that would imply / state that the Buddha and arahants consciousness would cease when they become enlightened which has lead / leading to much confusion for Buddhist practitioners today.

Do the Buddha and Arahants no longer become aware and responsive to one's surroundings? Do they no longer become aware or perceive things?

Myself have seen many times on here and other forums where people asks, "does the Buddha and Arahants have no consciousness?" and other similar questions / discussions. Pretty much in all cases, no conclusion was / is reached.
No, they don't become unconscious but awakening does mean that all conciousness will cease. People get stuck on this because they don't take into account that dependent origination happened in the past, and that awakening isn't retroactive.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Sam Vara »

Noble Sangha wrote: Sun Feb 05, 2023 5:11 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 9:58 pm
Several users quoted Venerables Dhammanando and Pesala weighing in upon the shortcomings and errors of the Waharakist understandings.
What I’m about to mention isn’t meant to criticize any individuals; after all, we're just sharing our views and opinions.

But didn't Dhammanando disrobed to get married? Can I take him to be someone capable of evaluating Venerable Waharaka Thero teachings (which includes Lal)?
Note that Venerables Pesala and Dhammanando were in agreement that the Waharakist translations were egregiously bad; and also that Ven. Dhamanando re-ordained and is still a monk to this day, as far as I know. I personally have a very high level of confidence in his translations and his understanding of Pali.
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