Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:20 pm
First you say the dictionaries are wrong then you talk about prefixes in general, what's next, mn43 is fake?
I never said the dictionaries are wrong. You have a tendency to misrepresent what I say. Please stop spreading lies.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:28 pm
User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:20 pm
First you say the dictionaries are wrong then you talk about prefixes in general, what's next, mn43 is fake?
I never said the dictionaries are wrong. You have a tendency to misrepresent what I say. Please stop spreading lies.
The vi in Viññāṇa according to the dictionaries is from Proto-Indo-European *wi- (“apart, away”). Same as the prefixal form of sanskrit वि (vi).
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:31 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:28 pm
User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:20 pm
First you say the dictionaries are wrong then you talk about prefixes in general, what's next, mn43 is fake?
I never said the dictionaries are wrong. You have a tendency to misrepresent what I say. Please stop spreading lies.
The vi in Viññāṇa according to the dictionaries is from Proto-Indo-European *wi- (“apart, away”). Same as the prefixal form of sanskrit वि (vi).
Yes, but in any given language the suffix might not mean anything. Vitakka is an example. This is why breaking down words into roots doesn’t necessarily tell you what the word means.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by User13866 »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:28 pm
User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:20 pm
First you say the dictionaries are wrong then you talk about prefixes in general, what's next, mn43 is fake?
I never said the dictionaries are wrong. You have a tendency to misrepresent what I say. Please stop spreading lies.
According to the dictionary Pali viññāṇa is analog form of Sanskrit विज्ञान (vijñāna)

From वि- (vi-, “diverse”) +‎ ज्ञान (jñāna, “knowledge”)

This is according to Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages

Therefore when you say
Ceisiwr wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 7:15 pm Viññāṇa doesn’t mean “divided knowing”.
Yes you are saying the dictionary is wrong in expressing your disagreement with the above.

When did i ever misrepresent you... you are lying.
Yes, but in any given language the suffix might not mean anything. Vitakka is an example. This is why breaking down words into roots doesn’t necessarily tell you what the word means.
This is utterly irrelevant to this particular case. There is overwhelming evidence to the contrary of your pet theory and as far as i know you are in disagreement with pretty much all authority in linguistics.

The pali is constistently translated based on the assertions contrary to your belief and the wording lends itself to be properly translated in it's many derivatives & causatives like viññāpeti, vijānāti, viññeyya.
Pulsar
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Pulsar »

Ceisiwr wrote
Viññāṇa doesn’t mean “divided knowing”
Do you mean in the enlightened Arahant, or in the non-enlightened dull-witted puthujjana?
Is not the context important, when this word is freely tossed around, especially in the late suttas of the Pali canon, fabricated by abhidhammikas?
Vinnana is translated as consciousness, cognition, perception, apperception, a sensation, a thought, and a load of other things.
When Ceis... thinks of something, is it a divided knowing or an undivided knowing? Please answer.
With love :candle:
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Sasha_A »

Lal wrote: Thu Feb 02, 2023 1:23 pm4. Now, all Arahants (and the Buddha) would have removed avijjā (cessation of ignorance of the Four Noble Truths.)
- Did the Buddha lose “viññāṇa” (“viññāṇa nirodha” in #2, i.e., at marker 3.1 in the sutta). Yes. The sutta (and many other suttas) clearly state that.
- Does that mean the Buddha lost consciousness upon attaining Buddhahood?
Ven. Nanavira wrote:VIÑÑĀṆA
Consciousness (viññāna) can be thought of as the presence of a phenomenon, which consists of nāma and rūpa. Nāmarūpa and viññāna together constitute the phenomenon 'in person'—i.e. an experience (in German: Erlebnis). The phenomenon is the support (ārammana—see first reference in [c] below) of consciousness, and all consciousness is consciousness of something (viz, of a phenomenon). Just as there cannot be presence without something that is present, so there cannot be something without its being to that extent present—thus viññāna and nāmarūpa depend on each other (see A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPĀDA §17). 'To be' and 'to be present' are the same thing.[a] But note that 'being' as bhava, involves the existence of the (illusory) subject, and with cessation of the conceit (concept) '(I) am', asmimāna, there is cessation of being, bhavanirodha. With the arahat, there is just presence of the phenomenon ('This is present'), instead of the presence (or existence) of an apparent 'subject' to whom there is present an 'object' ('I am, and this is present to [or for] me', i.e. [what appears to be] the subject is present ['I am'], the object is present ['this is'], and the object concerns or 'belongs to' the subject [the object is 'for me' or 'mine']—see PHASSA & ATTĀ); and consciousness is then said to be anidassana, 'non-indicative' (i.e. not pointing to the presence of a 'subject'), or niruddha, 'ceased' (see A NOTE ON PATICCASAMUPPĀDA §22). Viññānanirodha refers indifferently to anidassana viññāna (saupādisesa nibbānadhātu, which refers to the living arahat: Itivuttaka II,ii,7 <Iti.38>[12]) and to cessation, at the arahat's death, of all consciousness whatsoever (anupādisesa nibbānadhātu). Viññānanirodha, strictly speaking, is cessation of viññān'upādānakkhandha as bhavanirodha is cessation of pañc'upādānakkhandhā (i.e. sakkāyanirodha), but it is extended to cover the final cessation of viññānakkhandha (and therefore of pañcakkhandhā) at the breaking up of the arahat's body.
...
It doesn't really matter how the term is named - it's just a combination of letters, what matters is the meaning behind the term, behind the letters: its definition in context.
It is merely dukkha that comes into being, dukkha that stands and disappears,
Nothing apart from dukkha comes into being, nothing other than dukkha ceases.
- SN5.10
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Pulsar »

Sasha_A wrote
Itivuttaka II,ii,7 <Iti.38>[12]) and to cessation, at the arahat's death, of all consciousness whatsoever (anupādisesa nibbānadhātu).
Is this not a late development based on how abhidhmma tweaked Paticca Samuppada, and wrote suttas based on that novel understanding? I can bring you a sutta from the Sagathavagga, (when I find the time) that contradicts this.
With Love :candle:
readysetletgo
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by readysetletgo »

Consciousness - that which describes living beings and the senses as living and/or functioning. I think. Yet it is still inconstant, changeable, alterable and therefore subject to suffering and stress.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by cappuccino »

readysetletgo wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 7:48 pm Consciousness … is still … subject to suffering and stress.
Unless it is unconditioned
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Mahabrahma »

Unconditioned Consciousness means Spiritual Consciousness. Instead of meditating ourselves out of existence, there are some who feel we need to fill our empty cup up with the Holy Life.
That sage who has perfect insight,
at the summit of spiritual perfection:
that’s who I call a brahmin.

-Dhammapada.
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by cappuccino »

Mahabrahma wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 8:43 pm Instead of meditating ourselves out of existence, there are some who feel
said by the Master:

As even a little excrement is of evil smell, I do not praise even the shortest spell of existence, be it no longer than a snap of the fingers.

:quote:
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by dharmacorps »

Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:34 pm
Yes, but in any given language the suffix might not mean anything. Vitakka is an example. This is why breaking down words into roots doesn’t necessarily tell you what the word means.
This is very true. Its easy to over interpret or misinterpret when one over-dissects a phrase.

This is where the intentions, education, biases and background of the translator are important to know.
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

dharmacorps wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 9:29 pm
Ceisiwr wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:34 pm
Yes, but in any given language the suffix might not mean anything. Vitakka is an example. This is why breaking down words into roots doesn’t necessarily tell you what the word means.
This is very true. Its easy to over interpret or misinterpret when one over-dissects a phrase.

This is where the intentions, education, biases and background of the translator are important to know.
Yes. It's also wise not to fall into committing the etymological fallacy, which we have seen above: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

User13866 wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 1:44 pm
According to the dictionary Pali viññāṇa is analog form of Sanskrit विज्ञान (vijñāna)

From वि- (vi-, “diverse”) +‎ ज्ञान (jñāna, “knowledge”)

This is according to Comparative Dictionary of the Indo-Aryan Languages

Therefore when you say

Ceisiwr wrote: Viññāṇa doesn’t mean “divided knowing”.


Yes you are saying the dictionary is wrong in expressing your disagreement with the above.

When did i ever misrepresent you... you are lying.

Ceisiwr wrote: Yes, but in any given language the suffix might not mean anything. Vitakka is an example. This is why breaking down words into roots doesn’t necessarily tell you what the word means.

[name redacted by admin] wrote: This is utterly irrelevant to this particular case. There is overwhelming evidence to the contrary of your pet theory and as far as i know you are in disagreement with pretty much all authority in linguistics.

The pali is constistently translated based on the assertions contrary to your belief and the wording lends itself to be properly translated in it's many derivatives & causatives like viññāpeti, vijānāti, viññeyya.
I'm not denying that the word can be broken down into "vi" and "jñāna" in Sanskrit, nor am I denying that it can be likewise broken down in Pāli, so your claim that I was saying the dictionary is wrong is false. You can break down the word like that, but the prefix "vi" doesn't mean anything. It's the same with Vitakka. The "vi" there doesn't mean anything. Furthermore, as I mentioned in my post above, you are committing the etymological fallacy here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Ceisiwr
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Re: Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

Post by Ceisiwr »

Pulsar wrote: Fri Feb 03, 2023 2:00 pm Ceisiwr wrote
Viññāṇa doesn’t mean “divided knowing”
Do you mean in the enlightened Arahant, or in the non-enlightened dull-witted puthujjana?
Is not the context important, when this word is freely tossed around, especially in the late suttas of the Pali canon, fabricated by abhidhammikas?
Vinnana is translated as consciousness, cognition, perception, apperception, a sensation, a thought, and a load of other things.
When Ceis... thinks of something, is it a divided knowing or an undivided knowing? Please answer.
With love :candle:
I mean that the word viññāṇa doesn't mean "divided knowledge", and to claim that it does because you can break it down into it's roots is to commit a fallacy. As to your question, I don't really know what divided vs undivided knowledge actually means to you. Usually, when someone makes this argument, its because they want to argue for a form of non-duality.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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