Contradiction 1- Viññāṇa Means Consciousness?

[Joe.c]

- Don't hang onto words. Understand the meaning.
- "Vipaka vinnana" is what you experience as cakkhu vinnana, sota vinnana, etc.

What

Eye vinnana, sota vinnana is NOT vipaka vinnana. Someone is truly confused.

Eye vinnana, sota, ..., Mano are just the 6 Vinnana. The 5 recourse to mano vinnana.

Please don't misrepresent Buddha words with you impure explanation.

A puthujjana with blind eye can't even fully grasp the meaning of it.

Those Paticcasamuppada will be understood with same analysis as SN 12.2 and the rest of sutta with fully developed N8FP.

You can't separate the 12 links, they are all connected. But you need to stop each section with the N8FP. Step by step.

But once you have the full knowledge the whole DO stop to function. Mind is free with wisdom or free both way.

O one more thing, the breathing will stop when one has become an arahant (truly fascinating for ending of dukkha). Mind always in samadhi.

- 'Kamma vinnana" you ACCUMULATE by engaging in abhisankhara ("avijja paccaya sankhara"). P.S. That is the same as doing kamma and making causes for rebirths.
- One of those kamma vinnana (the strongest) becomes patisandhi vinnana at the moment of grasping a new existence (bhava).

This is what i call explaning high teaching with lower teaching (impure thinking).

Completely miss the Buddha teaching (complete, precise and pure).

Please ask your self:
- have you seen/known the alive (not death) ariya personally?
- have you heard true dhamma from him personally?
- have you perfected the ariyan precepts?
- have you perfected sense restraints?
- have you perfected sati/samadhi?

If you have none of the above, just give up your explanation. It is waste of time. Your mind is still full of asava(s) or defilements. Can't fully understand the whole teaching yet.

I am asking you to explain "contact" in the same way, in your own words.

Contact occurs when you interact with environment through your senses. When these happen the feeling/perceptions internally arise. One needs to stop/still/transcend the vedana and sanna to be freed. This is where samma sati/samadhi/vayama come to play.

Kamma and vipaka is lower Teaching as Buddha said in MN 117.

what is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment? ‘There is meaning in giving, sacrifice, and offerings. There are fruits and results (vipaka) of good and bad deeds (kusala & akusala kamma). There is an afterlife. There are such things as mother and father, and beings that are reborn spontaneously. And there are ascetics and brahmins who are well attained and practiced, and who describe the afterlife after realizing it with their own insight.’ This is right view that is accompanied by defilements, has the attributes of good deeds, and ripens in attachment.

what is right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path? It’s the wisdom—the faculty of wisdom, the power of wisdom, the awakening factor of investigation of principles, and right view as a factor of the path—in one of noble mind and undefiled mind, who possesses the noble path and develops the noble path. This is called right view that is noble, undefiled, transcendent, a factor of the path.

P.S. It should be translated as "with the ceasing of ignorance, rebirth-consciousness (patisandhi vinnana) ceases"

This is also wrong statement. Those 12 links always follow from Avijja. Vinnana in DO is not about rebirth. Completely miss the point.

When one has become arahant, they check the whole 12 links, not just the vinnana. One can't separate the 12.

When mind is completely still and not reaction to any conditionals and with fully developed N8FP, then one knows they are free.

If vinnana in DO is about rebirth, then there is no way an arahant with wisdom can be freed from birth, old age, sick and death before death of Body.

Based on his argument, then it is completely not possible to live and achieve holy life in this very life. BUT Buddha say it is possible to achieve all that when one is still alive And No need to wait for death.

His explanation is completely the opposite of the teaching.

One more thing, don't mix the past, present, future in DO. It can be confusing. This is why one needs to still/transcend the mind (samma samadhi) to understand.

If one used the regular human mind (impure, full of asavas), there is no way to understand.

[Lal]

It is fruitless to engage with those who are like "poor fields," in the words of the Buddha.
- Per the translation below, the Buddha explained that there are three types of people whom can be compared to three types of fields: "What do you think? When that farmer wants to plant seeds, where would he plant them first: the good field, the average one, or the poor one?”
"Khettūpama Sutta (SN 42.7)": https://suttacentral.net/sn42.7/en/suja ... =latin#1.8

You can prove that you are not a "poor field" by answering the question that I asked earlier:

If you understood bhikkhu Sujato's teachings (or any other teacher who translated suttas word by word), please explain what you understand by "avijja nirodha, phassa nirodha"?
- Does it make sense to translate it as "with the cessation of ignorance, contact ceases"?
- What "contact" is that? Please explain that in your own words.

You can also prove that you are not a "poor field" by admitting that you don't understand what is meant by "avijja nirodha, phassa nirodha"
- That is because only a Buddha can figure out Paticca Samuppada himself. For all others, it must be explained by a Buddha or a true disciple of the Buddha who has understood Buddha's explanation.

[Sam Vara]

You can prove that you are not a "poor field" by answering the question that I asked earlier:

This is a classic example of question-begging, based as it is on your own criterion of what constitutes a "poor field", or follower of another path.

And what, Bhikkhus, is a poor field? A poor field, Bhikkhus, is one who does not answer a question posed by some bloke on the internet.

(Lalsutta)

[Lal]

So, you cannot answer the question, Sam?

what you understand by "avijja nirodha, phassa nirodha"?
- Does it make sense to translate it as "with the cessation of ignorance, contact ceases"?
- What "contact" is that? Please explain that in your own words.

[Sam Vara]

So, you cannot answer the question, Sam?

what you understand by "avijja nirodha, phassa nirodha"?
- Does it make sense to translate it as "with the cessation of ignorance, contact ceases"?
- What "contact" is that? Please explain that in your own words.

I am not attempting to answer the question. I'm pointing out that your previous post was blatant form of petitio principii, or question-begging.

It might help avoid misunderstandings here if you bear in mind that your demands that people answer your questions or focus on what you want them to focus upon are normally reserved for relationships in which you are an acknowledged teacher.

[Lal]

Teaching involves asking questions.
- The questions are asked to steer a person on the right track.
- If you don't know something, you must admit that first. How can one make progress if one cannot even admit to it? Instead, they bring other issues to mask it.

I asked a very clean question. It is based on translations by numerous "teachers" of Buddha Dhamma. May be you should ask one of them to answer this question. After all, they translated the Pali verses just like I quoted.

[Sam Vara]

Teaching involves asking questions.

Sometimes it does, Socrates, and sometimes it doesn't.

But who asked you to teach them?

[Bundokji]

Instead, they bring other issues to mask it.

Why the tipitaka do not mention two types of vinnana?

[Lal]

Teaching involves asking questions.

Sometimes it does, Socrates, and sometimes it doesn't.

But who asked you to teach them?

I have taken on the task myself, Sam.
- Because most "teachers" are not teaching the correct Buddha Dhamma in English.
- Also, because I may not have that much time left in this life, I would like to try.

But you are evading the question again. Anyway, it does not matter.
- Those who can understand will benefit from this discussion.

[Lal]

Instead, they bring other issues to mask it.

Why the tipitaka do not mention two types of vinnana?

1. It does. But it is in the uddesa (brief) version. It needs to be explained in detail.
- I have tried to explain that concept in many posts.
- You are asking about places where "kamma vinnana" and "vipaka vinnana" appear directly. That is because you are used to seeing "word-by-word" translations. So, you think everything must be in the Tipitaka word by word.

2. If you understand that there are two types of vinnana, you can see which one is a "vipaka vinnana": cakkhu vinnana through mano vinnana. Those are sensory EXPERIENCES. Arahants experience them too.
- The other type is what Bhikkhu Sati was confused about: The "vinnana" that he thought traveled from life to life. That is "rebirth consciousness" or "patisandhi vinnana." Those are kammic energies created while engaging in akusala kamma. Those are "mano vinnana" with lobha, dosa, moha (avijja). We create numerous such kamma vinnana. Only the strongest becomes a patisandhi vinnana at the moment of grasping a new existence.
- Thus mano vinnana can be either vipaka vinnana or kamma vinnana. But cakkhu vinnana through kaya vinnana are ONLY vipaka vinnana.

P.S. As you can see, there are MANY types of vinnana. But once you understand the basic ideas, you can see which one applies where.
P.P.S. It is a "kamma vinnana" that "descends to a womb" as a "patisandhi vinnana" (per Maha Nidana Sutta (DN 15)) or "gandhabba" per “Mahā Tanhāsankhaya Sutta (MN 38).

[Ceisiwr]

2. If you understand that there are two types of vinnana, you can see which one is a "vipaka vinnana": cakkhu vinnana through mano vinnana. Those are sensory EXPERIENCES. Arahants experience them too.
- The other type is what Bhikkhu Sati was confused about: The "vinnana" that he thought traveled from life to life. That is "rebirth consciousness" or "patisandhi vinnana." Those are kammic energies created while engaging in akusala kamma. Those are "mano vinnana" with lobha, dosa, moha (avijja). We create numerous such kamma vinnana. Only the strongest becomes a patisandhi vinnana at the moment of grasping a new existence.
- Thus mano vinnana can be either vipaka vinnana or kamma vinnana. But cakkhu vinnana through kaya vinnana are ONLY vipaka vinnana.

The rebirth linking-conciousness is also a sensory conciousness.

[Bundokji]

1. It does. But it is in the uddesa (brief) version. It needs to be explained in detail.
- I have tried to explain that concept in many posts.
- You are asking about places where "kamma vinnana" and "vipaka vinnana" appear directly. That is because you are used to seeing "word-by-word" translations. So, you think everything must be in the Tipitaka word by word.

2. If you understand that there are two types of vinnana, you can see which one is a "vipaka vinnana": cakkhu vinnana through mano vinnana. Those are sensory EXPERIENCES. Arahants experience them too.
- The other type is what Bhikkhu Sati was confused about: The "vinnana" that he thought traveled from life to life. That is "rebirth consciousness" or "patisandhi vinnana." Those are kammic energies created while engaging in akusala kamma. Those are "mano vinnana" with lobha, dosa, moha (avijja). We create numerous such kamma vinnana. Only the strongest becomes a patisandhi vinnana at the moment of grasping a new existence.
- Thus mano vinnana can be either vipaka vinnana or kamma vinnana.

P.S. As you can see, there are MANY types of vinnana. But once you understand the basic ideas, you can see which one applies where.

Word by word distinctions are not necessarily linked to getting used to seeing translations, but to distinguish the essential from the non-essential, or the descriptive from the instructive. Unless you believe that introducing two types of Vinnana is essential to understanding the dhamma, you would not be doing it. As such, you are implying that the elders overlooked such important distinctions - using the issue of translation as a jusfication.

The law of non-contradiction, as used by you, is based on presenting PS in reverse mode as a framework to describe the arahant, then using the historical Buddha to confirm the alleged contradictions and presenting your two types of vinnana as a solution. By and large, in the suttas, the historical Buddha is merely a description, not an instruction/prescription.

“Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see of this foul body? One who sees the Dharma sees me; one who sees me, sees the Dharma.

Same thing happened with the Bhikkhu Sati, who did not seem to distinguish between the descriptive and prescriptive:

"Is it true, Sāti, that this pernicious view has arisen in you — 'As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another'?"

"Exactly so, lord. As I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it is just this consciousness that runs and wanders on, not another."

"Which consciousness, Sāti, is that?"

"This speaker, this knower, lord, that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & evil actions."

"And to whom, worthless man, do you understand me to have taught the Dhamma like that? Haven't I, in many ways, said of dependently co-arisen consciousness, 'Apart from a requisite condition, there is no coming-into-play of consciousness'? [2] But you, through your own poor grasp, not only slander us but also dig yourself up [by the root] and produce much demerit for yourself. That will lead to your long-term harm & suffering."

From that perspective, the mark of not distinguishing the essential from the non-essential would be using the historical Buddha to make conclusions about the dhamma.

[Pondera]

Viññana is not medical consciousness. Viññana, sañña, and vedanā are conjoined. You all have read me say vedanā means experience, sensation. The Teachings are about the human experience of suffering. They are not about biological issues. Viññana is conjoined and is the cognition and awareness of that experience. Arahant abides without human experience and without cognition of any of such experience. "Bliss of not feeling anything". Neurons still trigger neurosignals but this is not the point. The point is that there's no experience like the experience of pain, there's only pain but this is just that, nothing construed from it, only dhattus, only nibbana. Gosh if only one person could understand what I'm saying. They don't need to agree with me but simply get what I'm saying. Thank you

I think I understand you. At least no one understands US.

Vinnana is a TECHNICAL term. Especially in the context of perception.

You cannot have sense perception without sense consciousness.

Like some theories say you cannot have gravity between to objects without gravitons. These messenger particles.

The problem is that most people reject naive realism for subjectivism. But more about that LATER.

You can have sense objects and sense faculties. Indeed when an ascetic is in Nirodha Samapatti “his faculties are EXCEPTIONALLY CLEAR”!

What is the point. Consciousness is a substance which fills the universe. See “the dimension of the infinite of consciousness” ie. 6th jhana.

It is a simple particle which links the mind to its sense objects. By intense concentration, one can rid the mind of this substance. And then all feeling and perception cease. Unbinding occurs.

Now. Consciousness generally means to be aware. This is not the meaning of vinnana. That is citta. Or Mano. Which both exist in ninth jhana and fourth jhana and any nibbana. Have I said enough?

[Lal]

@ Bundokji or anyone else who thinks they understand Paticca Samuppada:
OK. So, you should be able to answer the question I asked earlier.

what you understand by "avijja nirodha, phassa nirodha"?
- Does it make sense to translate it as "with the cessation of ignorance, contact ceases"?
- What "contact" is that? Please explain that in your own words.

[Ceisiwr]

What is the point. Consciousness is a substance which fills the universe. See “the dimension of the infinite of consciousness” ie. 6th jhana.

It is a simple particle which links the mind to its sense objects. By intense concentration, one can rid the mind of this substance. And then all feeling and perception cease. Unbinding occurs.

How can you rid yourself of an independently existing thing?